Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

My thoughts, genuinely, are that you could not let your pro- Brexit thread leave the active conversation boards so you started a new one.

You have STILL after a thousand posts not said what Macron actually said. What does 'name calling' mean please?

I have said, and I will repeat for you I do not think any French president should be calling anyone a liar. It is a very inflammatory word and one that does not reflect a man of his position. I won't let my 8 year old use words like 'liar' and 'hate'. I teach to articulate her feelings without resorting to this kind of language.

I am not pro brexit in the least but thank you for your comment. I would like to remind you that this thread is a friendly thread you can go elsewhere with your anger.

Who exactly did he call a liar please? Was it 'the nation' as you asserted in your last thread?

I'm entitled to post here if I want. Feel free to report me.

Although I keep up with the latest on Brexit I hear very few people in unreal life even mention it.

What would you call a person who tells lies? If you can’t call out that type of behaviour you are allowing it to continue.

Sorry OP I think you’ll find a lot of people don’t agree with you and just opening a new thread hoping for different responses is a bit pointless really.
I think Macron was spot on with what he said and I for one am glad that a foreign leader is calling the liars out for what they are. I really think there should be prosecutions amongst those liars for wilfully misleading the public for their own selfish interests.

Also what does e are discussing anything 'on the touchlines' mean?

I am hopeful now of a Canada style plus plus deal, given that the EEA idea was abandoned and the special Chequers deal appears dead. Our best next option will be the Canada deal to avoid a hard brexit. The EU seem to be open to this idea, and it may the only option left on the table now.

You can tell lots of posters are not parents of any kind, and are probably paid to be here if they do recognise 'on the touch lines'

Really.

I recognise it. I just want to know exactly what you mean by it.

But we were lied to. You're suggesting a ban on free speech and honesty now?

Name calling, jokes and photos from the French? Nothing like the Brits then,not at all.

Johnson and his cronies cynically repeated things they knew to be untrue (E.g. we can stay in the single market but limit free movement of people- anyone who knows anything about the EU will know that is totally untrue) then avoided taking any of the consequences. Macron was spot on.

This is a place for polite debate and conversation

I'd hope it could stay that way, but somehow I doubt it

Although I dislike much of the poor behaviour around the EU negotiations, the key point to me is what you said yourself - that the whole organisation seems rotten to the core and incapable of any real change

I don't pretend to speak for the wider population, but among folk I know that was the main reason for voting "out"

OP, I've just read the last few pages on the old thread.

1. I still don't see what Macron's comment has to do with Theresa May. He said that the people who encourages us to vote for Brexit saying it would be easy and there would be money in it for us were liars and that they disappeared after the referendum because they didn't want to have to deal with it. What part of that statement is untrue, and what part of it do you think is insulting to Theresa May? She campaigned for remain and then took on the top job when none of the leave campaigners stepped up. He clearly wasn't talking about her. So please explain why you think it was insulting to her.

1. The cake joke. OK, this joke would perhaps have gone down better directed at Boris Johnson, but he was one of those who ran away from the leadership instead of towards it as soon as the result was known because he never actually wanted or expected us to vote leave. Since he's now resigned from the cabinet to distance himself from the government before all the chaos happens next March in a huff, Tusk can't get at him. But the point is, Boris and othereave campaigners said we could have our cake and eat it. It was an expression Boris actually used. So I think most people realise that Tusk's tweet is a joke about that, not a dig at Theresa May or her diabetes.

1. Rudeness. Back to Boris again. He said the EU could "go whistle" and also "fuck business", in the context of these negotiations. And that's not even counting all the years he spent in Brussels writing rude articles and plain old lies about the EU in the Telegraph for his own amusement. Why is it acceptable for British politicians to behave like that but as soon as an EU politician makes a snide tweet about cake you're up in arms about it?

1. You said the Irish border isn't the EU's business. This is factually and legally incorrect. If Northern Ireland leaves the single market and customs union then the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland becomes the EU's external border. If you are going to create a single market with no internal borders and no internal barriers to trade, you HAVE to have an external border and external barriers to trade. The whole reason a chicken carcass can be taken anywhere in the EU without having to be inspected is because if it originates in the EU or passes inspection somewhere in the EU, it is good to go anywhere in the EU. If a chlorinated chicken from Trump's America - or any other item which is not considered safe or desirable in the EU - can get into Northern Ireland, there needs to be a border to stop it getting into Ireland and from there onwards into anywhere else in the EU. That is why the border is very much the EU's business. And not just EU business, since failing to put up an external border would cause the UK, Ireland and the EU to breach a shit ton of other international laws and trade agreements, like the WTO rules the leavers want us to fall back on despite having no clue what those rules actually are.

1. No one believes you voted remain. Like actual bollocks you did.

As a parent I will say that I agree with everything Macron said. He’s stated facts

Why is it rotten to the core? The EU helps its citizens in lots of ways: cross border policing, environmental rights, employment rights, consumer rights and strong competition enforcement. It's not perfect but I don't understand how you could think it does no good at all.

Puzzledandpissedoff

It seems to be very hard to have a discussion without being drowned out by extremists on either side of brexit. The middle (and probably that counts for most of us) are largely unheard. Is there a huge divide between our vision for the country. Probably not when it really boils down to it. You voted to leave, I voted to remain but we both condemn the way TM was treated on Friday. That is where we do agree.

Oh and anti tax avoidance measures.

On the subject of parenthood, a PP implied that we have to show the next generation what happens when a disastrous decision like leaving is made

To me that sounds awfully like "I want this to fail, so I can prove to the kids I was right", when actually I'd have hoped that, for the sake of the future, the best approach is to make whatever success of it we can

Why is it rotten to the core? The EU helps its citizens in lots of ways: cross border policing, environmental rights, employment rights, consumer rights and strong competition enforcement. It's not perfect but I don't understand how you could think it does no good at all

I completely agree. The EU at its best is unbeatable. A collection of nations and countries swapping ideas, trading, instilling values, protecting the rights of employees and our value system is still one of the best in the world. The very nature of the EU is why I voted to remain. It does need to remain nimble and capable of moving with the times, and this I fear will damage its future.

You would honestly change your stance on a political issue that will impact future generations for decades because you thought somebody was a bit impolite? And you thought this because you had misrepresented his words either mistakenly or very much to suit your own purpose?

"both condemn the way TM was treated on Friday"

To be fair, I do believe the other EU leaders should have been more respectful.

However, when you see the behaviour of Farage in the EU Parliament and the behaviour of Johnson and Davis when they engage with the EU it is full of contempt and mocking. We have not put our best foot forward at all and I understand why the rest of the EU is very impatient with us now. None of this has been edifying for anybody.

What Macron said about Johnson et al is true and nothing to do with Theresa May.

For our children and granchildren we have to find a way of a credible and long lasting relationship.

But I fear after Friday, the EU seems committed now it comes to making sure that the UK deal does not happen and to make the process as horrendous as possible. With the far right breaking out all of over Europe, and no solution in sight, I am aware that for the EU the preferred option is to create conflict and pain.