Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

Just, I cannot fathom in light of battaclan attacks and the awful attacks across Europe how you could possibly say the eu helps with borders whilst the perps were happily flitting across borders, tusk or one of them actually said we will not close the boarders!! That was thier priority even in the aftermath of a heinous, Vile attack

Autumn, most remainers would accept a workable compromise somewhere on the upper steps of the Barnier staircase, with the Irish backstop. (The Irish backstop that the government already agreed to and then reneged on).

The lies to which Macron referred were the Leave promises that the EU could leave the EU, keep all the bits it likes and dump those it doesn't
Leave also promised completely conflicting things to voters on the left and right.

Many voters quite reasonably believed the lies directed at them by politicians they trusted

• and are likely to be very angry when the government doesn't deliver the impossible after Brexit Day

Hopefully, they'll be cross because of a U-turn, not an economic meltdown.

The EU kept polite for 2 years and let May peddle her cherry-picking fantasies
while telling her privately her proposals were impossible
All because they thought eventually she would settle for one of the deals that other countries have, e.g. Norway, Canada

Finally, at Salzburg, they realised it was not going to happen and that time has nearly run out to get a Withdrawal Agreement signed off by everyone.
Without a WA, there will be no transition period, just a cliff edge after 29 March 2019

The problem all along has been that May won't accept that she can't have all the benefits of a Norway-type deasl with only the obligations of a Canada deal.

If the EU granted that, they would be dismantling the Single Market on which their prosperity depends.
That would hurt them far worse than a no deal Brexit
May should realise this

She is trying to deliver on the different Leave promises, which is an impossible task

A Canada type deal is possible only if May signs the backstop
If the Uk Brexits without a Withdrawal Agreement, then the EU will require the backstop before they start negotiating on Canada - the Republic of Ireland will insist on this and the UK will no longer be a member.

An EEA / EFTA type deal would cause much less economic damage, so is my preferred soultion, to be negotiated after a WA, during the transition period.

Autumnwindy

I said there is cross border policing. I said nothing about closing borders in any particular case, which is about border control, an entirely different point.

I guess in the Brave New UK it is "extreme" to believe that politicians who tell lies should be called liars.

But be nice to Snowy who is still getting over the defeat of Marine Le Pen in the French election

Snowymountainsalways, you said on the previous thread that you were passionately in favour of the EU, and that you disagreed with your friends who voted leave.

It would be really helpful if you shared some of the pro-EU points you put to your friends. And their pro-leave points that you thought were wrong – and why.

Everything Ethel has said. It's interesting to see the OPs response to her views as well. Brandish them as extreme all you like OP but the truth is the truth. Painful as that might be.

Now Labour is now longer being evasive and going to push for Brexit with no reference whatsoever to the Irish Border question.

@EthelThePiratesDaughter I was called "extreme" as well after making some distinctly non-extreme statements.
Seems to be a bit of a keyword/tactic?

@Snowymountainsalways
It would also be good to understand why anyone would mention ‘war’ and ‘conflict and pain’ in relation to the Brexit negotiations?

Most rational educated people do actually see both sides to most subjects and do carefully consider them. Exactly.

www.itv.com/news/2018-09-20/sorry-no-cherries-donald-tusk-posts-a-picture-offering-theresa-may-a-cake-captioned-with-a-sly-putdown/
I actually find this outrageous.

With respect to the notion that there are 2 equivalent sides to everything; this is not true. Current physics and flat-earth theories are not equally supportable.

I thought it was funny.

I assume those outraged by Tusks picture are equally appalled by the tabloids front pages this morning? Y’know in the interests of fairness and balance.

The bloke on C4 news last night summed it up perfectly.

'They campaigned with lies, they've negotiated with fantasy, and yesterday they met with reality.'

Interesting program on disinformation on radio 4 last night.

A balanced view and the ability to see both sides of the argument appear to be entirely lost. It is not about who 'wins' and who 'loses'. It is essential that we are capable of a civil debate about the way forward.

The few posters on here that frequent bash away all debate are known to all of us. The truth is no matter how many times you close the debate, it is still happening.

Most reasonable people are looking for a compromise. The compromise looks less likely every day, and the real possibility of leaving with a no deal scenario is increasing by the day.

Am I up in arms? No.
Am I going to close down everyone that disagrees with me? No

All opinions are valid on here, remain and leave but you need to at least be prepared to listen to other views.

I assume those outraged by Tusks picture are equally appalled by the tabloids front pages this morning? Y’know in the interests of fairness and balance

I think EU leaders have been remarkably restrained given that they came to a written agreement on the Irish backstop last December that May has gone back on.

That said I think social media snark is a bad look for a serious politician.

OTOH I have no issues with what Macron said. Honesty from politicians is a good look.

That said I think social media snark is a bad look for a serious politician. You've put it very well

you need to at least be prepared to listen to other views.

That cuts both ways. You still haven't explained why you think it's "despicable" for Macron to call a person who tells lies a liar.

Most reasonable people are looking for a compromise. The compromise looks less likely every day, and the real possibility of leaving with a no deal scenario is increasing by the day

I would love a compromise. The trouble is May wants the EU to compromise the four freedoms that is at its heart. They won’t do it and have been very upfront about this from day 1. No cherry picking.

You can tell lots of posters are not parents of any kind, and are probably paid to be here if they do recognise 'on the touch lines

What now?

So why introduce the concept ‘war’ in relation to the EU/UK Brexit negotiations. Surely the antithesis of civil debate? Please present an explanation of why this is justified.