Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

It seems to be very hard to have a discussion without being drowned out by extremists on either side of brexit. The middle (and probably that counts for most of us) are largely unheard

The trouble with Brexit is that there isn’t much of a middle ground. Chequers leaves both Leavers and Remainers dissatisfied. The only options that make sense are to leave completely (no deal) or to remain as we are.

I’m very much a find a middle way, sit on the fence kind of person. But that doesn’t work for Brexit

What Macron said was true and not insulting to anyone. Since the Brexit vote, the British Govt has dragged its heels, to be polite, over everything. I imagine (very) partly because it was soon apparent that it was likely to be impossible to achieve no hard border without treating the six counties in a different way to the rest of the UK.

The so called insult over the cake photo is a non issue. We have heard the EU endless times repeating ad infinitum that Britain cannot cherrypick over movement of people, services etc. To view it otherwise brings the ' determined to be offended' to mind.

I posted this on the last thread right at the end, leaving it here too because it seems like an honest account of Salzburg that both sides should read

www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/0921/995292-salzburg-chronic-misreading/

You would honestly change your stance on a political issue that will impact future generations for decades because you thought somebody was a bit impolite?

Obviously not.

Because (1) if she were that bothered about rudeness she would be cringing with embarrassment at how Boris and other leavers have behaved towards the EU over the years and especially during these negotiations, and (2) anyone stupid enough to change their view on something so important over something so minor would definitely have voted leave in the first place.

JustBecause I don't think it does "no good at all", only that the overall administration of the EU is no longer an appropriate thing to be part of. The UK's far from perfect and we have corruption here too, but that's no reason to import a whole load more

It seems to be very hard to have a discussion without being drowned out by extremists on either side of brexit. The middle (and probably that counts for most of us) are largely unheard

Beautifully put

But I fear after Friday, the EU seems committed now it comes to making sure that the UK deal does not happen and to make the process as horrendous as possible

The EU have stated no cherry picking from day 1. They have been clear and consistent.

Next year we will cease to be a member. Is it really surprising they will treat their member better than a country that’s just left?

Oh please OP , the EU has its aim, 'creating conflict and pain? Think you've just shown where your political views lie.

I’m very much a find a middle way, sit on the fence kind of person. But that doesn’t work for Brexit

It could, if red lines were redrawn. While it wouldn't be my personal choice, step two on the Barnier staircase (Norway) respects the referendum, does not cause irreversible loss of damage or rights, and would be swallowed by most moderate leavers and most remainers.

MyBrexitUnicornDied

The middle, reasonable considered way may well have been something along the lines of the EEA (with some caveats) or an improved Chequers. This would have been precisely the right choice for a return to stability, cooperation and a continuation of good relations. However, it seems to me at least from what we have seen on Friday that the EU do not want a reasonable solution to this, they are looking for a rupture. It is now impossible to imagine they want anything else.

So now I am forced to agree with you, it can no longer be the middle way that much is now clear, and I am saddened by the fact that this process has descended into such animosity.

The OP by the way is either a recent joiner or a namechanger as her posting history as far as I can tell only goes back about 4 days.

What Ethel said. There’s no way you’re a remainer. Leaving the EU will be a financial disaster for the U.K. it may lead to the break up of the UK altogether so a political disaster too. It was key to get the right deal on leaving. Theresa May sabotaged that by serving article 50 notice to appease the extremists in her own party. She does not have an easy job but she has still made some critical errors for which she should be held responsible.

It seems to be very hard to have a discussion without being drowned out by extremists on either side of brexit. The middle (and probably that counts for most of us) are largely unheard

Your view of "extremist" is quite broad. You called me an extremist on the previous thread because I challenged your opinion that opting into the EEA was unworkable. Which was bizarre to say the least.

Oh and you're not the thread police. Pros can say what they want. MN will delete any posts that break talk guidelines.

The middle, reasonable considered way may well have been something along the lines of the EEA

Barnier suggested this a long time ago - see the famous Barnier staircase slide.

You seem spectacularly ill-informed.

With some goodwill on both sides the middle way could have championed the way.

It could, if red lines were redrawn

I would happily swallow a soft Brexit. We stay in the single market, customs union we keep freedom of movement. But would Leavers swallow it?

And you still haven't explained why you find a politician telling the truth so despicable.

Do you actively prefer politicians who lie?

I'm on my way out, but - while I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong - isn't troll hunting supposed to be disallowed on here?

Is this a new trend amongst leavers? Start threads that depict the EU as evil bullies and the U.K. as the innocent victims whose only hope is salvation from the Churchillian like May. Fits with this mornings tabloid narrative. Desperate stuff devoid of all reason and flies in the face of everything that has happened in the last 2 years.

With some goodwill on both sides the middle way could have championed the way

This just sounds like “if they had let us cherry pick things would be fine”

From day 1 - no cherry picking.

But would Leavers swallow it?

Not leavers like our friend Snowy. But most people who voted leave aren't really that interested in politics. Most people just want a decision made and everyone to shut up about Brexit. They don't want to lose their jobs and not be able to get their prescription medicines. You could sell them Norway if you wanted to.

A final observation about snowymountainsalways.

Her posting style - in particular the faux outrage about the precise point that she has chosen to make a faux outraged post about and strategy of completely ignoring precise or difficult questions put towards her which do not suit her narrative - is highly reminiscent of a couple of posters who were on this board round the clock prior to the referendum and disappeared the morning after --like Boris did in "real life" actually^.

I am certain that those people were paid trolls employed by someone on the leave side because they did not seem to have time for any other kind of employment or occupation and they did not ever seem to get upset or annoyed or respond to other posters in a normal, frustrated, human way. And they didn't stay to gloat after the result, which was another big red flag.

If they were being paid and they disappeared after the referendum because they weren't being paid anymore, and now they are back again, that suggests that the person who employed them in the first place to come and persuade Mumsnetters to vote leave is having doubts about whether Brexit is really in the bag after all.

You've been repeatedly asked to specify exactly where Macron was name calling.

You've not been able to do so because he didn't

He accurately stated that the British were lied to by the Leave campaign and that those that did so ran away did not stay to manage the result.

You've had his entire text repeated to you in both translation and the original French. There is nowhere in that statement where there is either name calling or disrespect to the UK's leader (I refuse to say "our" as she's not doing any of this in my name ). It is a statement of fact

I have to say that I am joining the queue of people who refuse to believe you were ever a Remainer, let alone a "moderate Remainer" whatever that means

The fact that you've name changed conveniently means that no one can see what your previous posting history consisted of - but I'm sure that MNHQ can check

Ethel well you're going to get deleted but these people have certainly been Springing into Action recently if you get my drift.

Puzzledandpissedoff

What about the EU is rotten to the core - that was my question?

Actually, UK government is remarkably unblemished by corruption by global standards. It is more susceptible to corporate lobbying than the EU though (speaking generally of course).