Macron's behaviour is despicable Part two

[Snowymountainsalways]

The thread was closed as it has exceeded 1000 posts.

I have reopened another one in hope that we will be able to discuss with honesty the Salzburg summit, both sides of the brexit debate and with cordiality. This is not a place for venting. Please do that elsewhere. This is a place for polite debate and conversation.

Around dinner tables and on the touch lines we are talking about the future of the brexit deal, if there is a future with the EU or not and what the options are for us now.

I voted to remain, and I am unhappy with the impasse. I had expected and hoped for progress. It did not happen.

Macron descended into name calling, and Tusk posted jokes and photos that are not in the least bit funny about a diabetic person. It was unsettling and disturbing to see how disrespectful they were to our PM TM. So we consider where we are this morning.

Thoughts?

The minute a person with a reasoned moderate view wants to talk about brexit, you get the usual guns to the head and either she is not a remainer or worse still she is a troll!

This is just a way to silence.

It is totally unacceptable. I voted remain but I am still allowed to be angry that our PM was treated badly. I am still entitled to feel something approaching fury at the EU for again messing up the only small amount of progress made and now forcing us into a situation of hard or very hard brexit.

I am allowed to want a relationship with the EU based on goodwill and cooperation even if the vote means we can stay (and I have now accepted we must leave, as painful as it was at time to concede)

Whilst I understand there is great emotion on both sides, I do feel a reasoned debate and swapping solutions will be the only way forward.

Agree with Ethel.

I won't be deleted no matter how insidious your technique to silence anyone with a different opinion, because I am a thoroughbred MN for the past eight years and have no concerns whatsoever about who I am and what I stand for.

What should be stopped is the undermining of free speech on forums.

Mistigri 100%.

Snow if you are not a paid troll, perhaps you could respond to the question I have asked you several times now.

Which part of Macron's statement was insulting to Theresa May?

I am still entitled to feel something approaching fury at the EU for again messing up the only small amount of progress made and now forcing us into a situation of hard or very hard brexit.

What was the progress made? Hard Brexit or EEA are the only credible solutions that ensure we leave without fundamentally undermining everything the EU stands for. I knew from the second I saw the result it would be hard Brexit or no Brexit. That is why if there is a Peoples Vote I will vote remain. How will you vote in a hypothetical Peoples Vote (note that this question is not concerned with the likelihood or merits of such a vote)

Macron's speech was designed to humiliate Mrs May. It was designed to embarrass her on the world stage and show the world he has not intention of working with her.

The word 'liar' is not one that should ever be used by a statesman, Macron may not agree with the leave campaign (nor do I) but he can not strut around calling people liars. He is an embarrassment.

Sorry, first paragraph was a direct quotation and should have shown in bold.

To avoid retyping @saoirse31 has said what I think.
Apart from deciding what should happen with the (currently non) border the UK should simply leave. The government has acted abominably, worse than kids in the playground.
It is just as well that Mrs May was not being monitored with a lie detector while giving her speeches, there were so many. More stupid is that it was in front of the worlds press and they already know the truth.
EU companies should either restructure or leave, with all the moving costs to be borne by the UK.
The UK wants to be 'pig headed' and go it alone in a world full of sharks, fine, go ahead.
As an elderly Brit I am ashamed of what the UK gov has become in this and many ways.

EthelThePiratesDaughter I wish MN would pin your post describing these tactics somewhere.

I expect my post to be deleted but at least it will draw attention to these tactics.

"The word 'liar' is not one that should ever be used by a statesman"

They did repeatedly and cynically lie. I think it is statesmanlike not to be cowed and to call it like he (and most other people) see it.

Snow

Once again, Macron's comments called out the people who encouraged us to vote leave saying it would be easy and disappeared after the referendum because they didn't want to take responsibility.

Do you honestly think those comments can really be understood to be about Theresa May, who campaigned for remain and then became prime minister to lead us through Brexit after none of the liars leavers wanted the job?

Please answer.

Others have questioned the genuine nature of OP/snowymountainalways and her commitment to remain. Worth just recapping on some points:

• OP joined 2/3 days ago and active on AIBU discussions. Apparently a long term MN user but changed email. Care sharing a previous username?
• OP professes to have supported remain yet appears to take typical leaver positions on many points and wishes to respect the referendum result despite the continued lack of clarity on what Brexit means
• OP doesn’t address the point that Macron was referring his blunt comments to leading leavers and not the UK as a whole or TM specifically
• OP obfuscates and evades but claims to be polite and decent. However, she is the first to mention war on the previous thread and considers it at several points. Why might that be? Who benefits from war like attitudes between UK and EU?

Somewhat concerning pattern no?

@Snowy
How would you describe Cameron, Mogg, Davis Johnson when they have demonstrably told lies?
Mrs May and the government have gone into a hardware store and are now getting upset because there are no cakes. The sign on the door says 'Hardware' and a supplementary sign says 'No cakes in here'.
It really is this simple.

The word 'liar' is not one that should ever be used by a statesman

He was pointing out people have lied. What word would you prefer he used?

The word 'liar' is not one that should ever be used by a statesman

What else should we call someone that tells lies?

I voted remain but I am still allowed to be angry that our PM was treated badly.

Well she wasn't, the statement wasn't about her or us as a nation. As you've been told, repeatedly. Liar isn't a bad word if it's said about someone lying, which it was. You're either thick or a leave voter stirring.

I am still entitled to feel something approaching fury at the EU for again messing up the only small amount of progress made and now forcing us into a situation of hard or very hard brexit.

There never was any progress. The Tories came up with a plan that some of them agreed on, but many didn't. Even if they were in unity behind the plan, they failed to take into account one absolutely vital factor - the exit agreement must be by negotiation, and that's something our government is incapable of doing.

Spot on Ethel and re your summary post elsewhere.

Ethel your views are very extreme. Anyone who isn't strident and hateful will be a leaver clearly in your view.

Most rational educated people do actually see both sides to most subjects and do carefully consider them.
I can certainly see how my views would be totally different if my life had gone a different way.
I can argue for both sides almost equally because into the mix of my personal experience and education and views... I then read everything that I could on brexit, the eu and the referendum. I listened to all sorts of debates and so on.
Which is why it annoys me when people post.. But what issues, what this, please explain.

Remainers and leavers I know in real life did same as me.
They did research before coming to their vote decision. Because of that they know the issues on both sides.

Spitting out bitter vitriol all. The. Time... Just reflects on the poster. Asking for stuff to be spelled out or explained, reflects on the the poster.

I simply do not know at this stage how people so bitter about brexit will not open their minds and read.

Macron didn't call May a liar (although she is: her Downing St speech yesterday contained a number of untruths; she's either a liar or alarming uninformed).

He called leading brexiters liars for claiming that brexit would be easy and then buggering off.

Whatever one thinks about May, she has never pretended that this would be easy, and she has never taken the easy route of getting out of the kitchen whenever it gets a bit hot. She does have some courage.

@snowymountainsalways
What made you mention war in the first thread?

I simply do not know at this stage how people so bitter about brexit will not open their minds and read

I have been reading. I’m finding the more I find out about Brexit the worse it looks.

ethel summed it up for me.

Theresa May was not treated badly. She set the tone and the other leaders responded accordingly.

As stated bu other posters, the reason the OP is so outraged at leave campaigners being called liars is because it's true but too close for comfort.