Things you should never say in front of childless women

[Clothrabbit]

Just following on from another thread I started, what things have childless women on here had said to or in front of them, or read celebs spouting in public, that really hurt or upset them.

For me:

You don't know what real responsibility is until you have a child.
Having a child makes you less selfish.

 to all!

Where is the flowers emoji going? Anyway flowers to all!!

Usually have to buy them

Ooh also

I've been knee deep in some pretty detailed academic research into 'baby hunger' and why we feel so deeply about having children

What was fascinating to me is that researchers were pretty astonished to find little to no evidence that the commonly held assumption that the desire to reproduce is a biological instinct, actually exists

The evidence is almost exclusively that it's psycho-societal reasons that drive this and are applied to a biological process

Reproduction is biological but parenthood is psychological

At a genetic level the purpose of all species is to reproduce

But there is no evidence that this is actually what drives the desire to have children and the anguish it causes when those who want to, cannot

It's absolutely fascinating stuff - challenged a huge number of assumptions in my mind

It's basically almost entirely societal, which makes sense therefore why it's societal reactions to NOT following the pronatalist norm that causes so much pain

I only have 800 words for the Guardian piece but I've found it pretty astonishing as basically scientists have had to conclude that the hypothesis that our desire to have children is a primal instinct actually doesn't seem to be true!

Can’t see the word barren going down well with all (or even many).

Nulliparous would be better.

I posted on here over the weekend about an Irish celeb who was quoted in the paper as saying 'if you want a good job done, ask a working mother'.

Someone started a thread about her remark on Boards.ie - an Irish website, saying they thought it was an unfair comment and hurtful to women who hadn't had children and received this response :

"I'm a mother but considering I'm typing this instead of working clearly not a model employee that Maia Dunphy is talking about. However this outrage is just complete nonsense. I actually don't even care if working mother with man, woman, traveller, black person, yellow person, alien but this need for individuals to always be included in anything positive someone says is ridiculous. It's me, me, me... It's all about 'me' and if one doesn't fit the category then one has to be offended and require the statement to be censored."

It really underlines how difficult some women find it to understand the lonely alienation experienced by the involuntarily childless at times. It actually upset me reading it. I've no doubt she'd also dismiss this thread as a load of self indulgent nonsense.

Re barren, there's a thread called the uber barrens about infertility and involuntary childlessness, and I'm writing a book specifically about the experience of how it feels to be 'barren'

I've had hundreds of contributions from real women and people, like me, loathe the word barren for its baggage but it's deliberately provocative for that very reason.

It's an incredibly harsh word that represents exactly how it feels to suffer infertility. And many many women have said that they want people to better understand how traumatic the experience of not being able to have a much wanted child is.

As one contributor described it

"I think it’s an utterly desolate word, and in that sense, describes perfectly what it feels like to be beyond the reach of fertilty treatment and in the isolated position of not being able to carry a child yourself by any means. "

Nulliparous is factual. It doesn't convey the heartache of what that actually means from a psychological point of view. And it doesn't distinguish between not being able to have children, and simply not having given birth.

I think it’s almost impossible to cater for both involuntarily childless women, who want to talk about their stories, and the childfree by choice, who I think mainly just wish everyone would stfu about it and talk about something interesting. Or at least, that’s my perspective on it as a childfree woman. I so completely agree with the article linked above about how motherhood shouldn’t be so much the defining feature of being female. Funnily enough I think that’s actually the reason I opted out. I think I could have coped with the benign neglect style of parenting that was acceptable 30/40 years ago, but the current all-encompassing, the-most-important-job-you’ll-do approach just seemed intolerably stifling to me.

Btw, I don’t mean to be insensitive to anyone who is involuntarily childless. I really do feel for you. I just think the the world makes it worse going on about what you could have won.

bananafish81 super interesting, and high five for being published!

I think I could have coped with the benign neglect style of parenting that was acceptable 30/40 years ago, but the current all-encompassing, the-most-important-job-you’ll-do approach just seemed intolerably stifling to me.

I'm infertile, but I actually agree with this. When we imagined and planned for having children, we planned to bring them up in the same way that we were. Even then we were both clear that we wanted children to bring up to be their own person rather than to be the centre of our world and changing everything for them. My husband was a primary school teacher and so knew a lot of children and felt very strongly about this. Many of his colleagues agreed, but they were more often listened to and taken notice of because they were able to reproduce amd we weren't.

Anyway, just a quick derail and I'm expecting a flaming for being the childless woman who dared to have an opinion on parenting.

Too secure to care

Post about a thread but I’ll just leave this here:

Aw give your kids a cuddle and know you have proper meaning in your life if not much glamour right now

Helpmefindaholiday I know your posts were a while back but I get what you are saying about the anxious love that parents feel. I say this as a childless person. I think you have expressed it in the only way that I have found not to be a bit offensive or condescending.

Whilst at one point I did want children very much, I have accepted it won't happen and I am now really at peace with that.

With hindsight I think that type of 'anxious love' would have almost killed me and certainly probably had an adverse impact on any children I would have had. I suffer from anxiety and get very irrationally anxious about bad things happening to people I love. I think it is actually best in the long run all round that I am now childfree.

This is just my view. I cannot comment on how others feel.

One thing I find it useful to remember is that other people's words are primarily about themselves, not about you. Their words are not the Truth - just an insight into their own personality.

I worked in safe houses for years and saw first hand what having kids could be like. I vowed on one occasion then and there I would never shackle my life to some twat, such that I wouldn't be able to work and get free, and not working or being a single mum with no time off whatsoever is not the life for me. I did think I did have kids, but when lush came to shove, I decided no. Luckily in my field we are quite savvy about people who live differently and I'm no different to many others. I feel sorry for people who live lives where, if what unfolds for their life doesn't follow a more or less normal script, they are seen as less than.

saw first hand what having kids could be like. I vowed on one occasion then and there I would never shackle my life to some twat

I didn't want kids either, but that's a bit harsh

Whoever posted that lost needs to have a long hard think about how derogatory that is to the many of us trying to reassure those who have recently discovered they can't have children that yes, you can still build a meaningful life when that dream has been taken away from you.

Because you can despite smug condescending posts like that.

@Leighhalfpennysthigh I have no words for your loss. Completely humbled. What an absolute love story. Your husband sounds like a truly wonderful man. It reminds of the line in the Don Mclean song - the world was never meant for one as beautiful as you.' I truly hope you find comfort and peace.

Hepburn was 500 times the actress that Weaver will ever be

Sorry, it's not on topic, stupid remark from Weaver but could you imagine Katherine Hepburn doing Alien? She had a limited range, what she did, she did well, but you really can't compare them.

Something to add to the list of things not to say. I don't have children but have dogs. I am fully aware my dogs are not children, even though I love them endlessly. When I am with a group of friends who all have children and they start talking about their children (which is absolutely fine), one of them will inevitably start to bring my dogs into the conversation as almost a substitute child.

I know they are doing this to try and involve me in the conversation but I hate it. It makes me feel very inadequate and embarrassed, almost as though they think I pretend my dogs are children and they are humouring me.

It also makes me wonder whether they think I am incapable of relating to what they are talking about. Instead of a conversation where people share different experiences - it becomes 'them' and 'me', my otherness becomes very acute.

@SongsWithoutWords thank you for your lovely words. He was indeed a special and wonderful man.
I'm currently dipping my toe into online dating, but no one comes close.

Wow. I've been posting on a thread where a poster talked about people without children not having the same 'mental load' as those with children. When I disagreed I got this response:

"Oh come on, there is hardly any 'mental load' for a healthy adult-only household as compared to one with children in it. I don't understand how people make such a meal of their lives."

@justfloatingpast

I completely disagree with you.