Things you should never say in front of childless women

[Clothrabbit]

Just following on from another thread I started, what things have childless women on here had said to or in front of them, or read celebs spouting in public, that really hurt or upset them.

For me:

You don't know what real responsibility is until you have a child.
Having a child makes you less selfish.

I’m only on page 12 of this thread but so desperately want people to show a bit of fucking respect for women who have no children - whether by choice or not.
And secondary to that, show some respect to women who have had children by not generalising! Because those stupid, thoughtless comments generalise both categories. Every mother doesn’t feel the same... just like every woman who hasn’t got children doesn’t feel the same. Why can’t people just think before they speak?

I do have a child, btw. And I still find these comments infuriating. People are so bloody narrow minded. I don’t believe I suddenly know more about love or tiredness etc than I did before.

Thanks for the kind comments

It's ok to just say sorry, that's shit. He was a man in a million, my husband, and, to me, irreplaceable. We had been together since Uni and never wanted anyone else. Even after all our problems with fertility treatment and the grief and pain, we still wanted each other and no one else. I still talk to him. I have taken a particular route in my career because that was the the sport he loved and played (though was too lazy and too interested in teaching to pursue it professionally).

Even my MN nickname is based on a joke that he shared with one of my colleagues - when someone suffers from depression and then kills themselves it is hard to explain to them that there were still some light moments where we laughed and enjoyed ourselves.

He has influenced me so much. While I'm alive he lives on. But when I'm dead, I don't really know anymore.

Leigh he sounds like a wonderful man, and his memory and legacy will always live on. I still chat to my late mum, I don't need to go to a graveside, if I want to have a chat with her, she's not there, she's here in our hearts and minds.

And the humour is so important!! Love and laughter is what keeps us going. It's an honour to hear about your darling husband, he sounds like an amazing guy and someone whose generous soul has clearly touched many many people

If talking about him helps, we're all here for you and delighted to listen

Another link that people might enjoy - yes it's Jody Day again!

She wrote this for Grazia: Can We Stop Making Motherhood The Defining Feature Of A Woman’s Existence??*

Thought some of you might appreciate this xx

Cheers @bananafish81 It's nice to talk about him without having to deal with other people's sympathy or, worse, the looks of pity mixed with relief that it's not them....they've got their spouse and children all alive.

Off to read that article before I go to work. Xx

Leigh, I totally get what you mean about still having laughter and jokes; my DH suffers from treatment-resistant depression but that doesn't mean every minute is doom and gloom or that we never laugh. It sounds as though you had a wonderful relationship, you and him against the world, and as others have said he lives on not only with you, but I bet he touched dozens and dozens of other lives in small ways and large, and will be remembered with affection by more people than you'll ever know.

Celestia I must apologise, really I should have paraphrased your post rather than quoting as it's the general "AIBU is a bear pit and that absolves me of behaving like a decent human being, I can be as rude as I like and it's their fault for posting here" mindset I take issue with, not your words or you in particular. I just don't believe the fact something is posted in AIBU, be it for traffic or because it's a newish poster who doesn't even realise there are other, perhaps more specific boards, is a licence for people to act like a dick. Hurting people are hurting whether they post on AIBU, Infertility, Mental Health or wherever, and are worthy of compassion regardless. But that's not a criticism of you or your posts on this thread, so apologies for not making that clearer.

Even my MN nickname is based on a joke that he shared with one of my colleagues - when someone suffers from depression and then kills themselves it is hard to explain to them that there were still some light moments where we laughed and enjoyed ourselves.

I get that completely Leigh. And I love your nickname. I am glad you feel able to talk about your husband here. It sounds like he was a wonderful man.

Thank you. He was indeed x

bananafish81 Thank you, I hope others are able to gain insight from this thread too.

BanananananaDaiquiri Thanks for your reply, I agree no one should be mean regardless of what board it is!

I am a bit late to this but these are some things I have had.
You do not know real love until you have a child.
You are only slim because you do not have a child.
You have not met the right man yet .
You are a career girl .
You should not be breeding with your genes.
That’s all we need ( on thinking I was pregnant) . Needless to say , the second time I thought I was I did not bother saying anything.
Why do you not have children?

I am a childless woman. I have a little sadness about it, but it also never really became a huge priority for me. I never tried to intervene and decided what will be will be.

I find most people don’t say anything to me about my situation. I think that is probably the safest thing to do in general, although I would not mind if every now and again somebody that knows me well we’re to ask how I felt about it.

As to what annoys me, it is when there is this assumption that you cannot understand certain things that other people can understand. I can, I really can, I am still part of the human race. There is this thread about somebody complaining about children eating her adult cake and a few are asking if she has children, presumably because if she doesn’t have children it would explain why she doesn’t understand social conventions.

One that, rather unexpectedly, stung this week was someone referring to pregnancy as being “in the club”. I will never have a baby so I won’t be joining the club and felt a bit excluded. I’m normally v pragmatic and except for some spectacularly insensitive comments it’s usually water off a duck’s back but that one got me.

user1494667160

But it's not a fact for everyone.
It may be true for you, but that's all you know. You can't answer for anyone else.

I do have a child. She's a teen now.

But my worst, and I mean by far worst, fatigue has never been caused by having a child or being a parent. I have fatigue and tiredness due to a health condition. That is what causes, and has caused, me more tiredness than anything else ever in my life. I'd still have that whether I was a parent or not. The having a child has no bearing at all on which form of tiredness has been the most extreme in my life.

I've lost count of the times colleagues or people I meet through work ask me 'how many kids do you have?' And I have to say none. Which is always followed by 'oh' like it's such a sad shock for them. Then I'm left to ask about theirs, or just wait for them to tell me at length about them.

It makes me feel like I'm judged as a failure.

@Aragog

You're absolutely right. I have extreme fatigue now, but that's not because of my DDs, who are 9 and 6 and are a good deal less dependent on me now. It's because I'm coping with depression and PTSD because of my childhood SA, which has really impacted upon me since having my DDs.

I was a lot less tired than I am now when my DDs were preschoolers and I was pushing buggies and changing nappies all day. It was physically draining at times, but in a nice way most of the time.

Mehgan Markle made a comment this week about her and Harry being 'ready to join the club'. I know it was just said without thinking but it reinforced this 'separation' between parents and nonparents and it hit me in the gut a bit.

That’s the one I was thinking off. I must have heard others say it before but it just got to me this time. Ah well, onwards and upwards.

One thing I thought of recently with all the “why don’t you just adopt” comments is that it sometimes means you end up having to discuss things you’d prefer not to. I have SCs and they live with us and we do all the usual sorts of things, dentist, GP trips, etc. and so often questions come up about babies and I’m just clueless so we go through a whole rigmarole of having to explain I’ve never had or cared for a baby, more blank looks because I’m there with youngish children, more explanations. Very tiring and often not very sensitive for the children.

I mean that even if you adopt, it works out everything is fantastic it still throws up issues that can sting. It’s not a wonderful magic cure by any means (as some seem to think).

That's so true, @LostInShoebiz but both can be true at the same time. I wouldn't be without our two adopted DDs (9 and 6), they're settled with us and we have a loving home. But it's not all rosy, DD1 has serious behavioural issues due to Attachment Disorder.

You shouldn't go in for adoption without putting a lot of thought into it. You can make initial enquiries with SS, they will give you a very realistic picture of what adoption can be like. It's unfair on the children being adopted if you adopt them and then find out that you can't cope with them.

One of my dear friends (male) said this: you don't stop being selfish when you have children, you are just selfish for them too.

I was in a lift on a particularly bad day with DD2 and was talking to a lovely lady who was travelling with work. I was complaining about being SAHM and how it was driving me crazy. She said I was lucky and I thoughtlessly said I was envious of her.
She then told me she couldn't have children.
I felt horrible with myself. Now, every time I feel stuck or frustrated that lady comes to mind and I remind myself to be thankful and to be more sensitive.
For the most part a really great thread to make people more aware of things that are said a lot without really thinking or realising.

That’s very thoughtful agirlhasnonameX. If it’s any consolation to anyone, even amongst ourselves we can still cause upset and offence. I’m pretty sanguine about the whole thing now but for some others I know who are actively addressing infertility without success, things said amongst ourselves can cause a lot of upset so we’ve all been in the position. The real battle, which I think is shown by this thread, is with people that will continue to tell you that you feel incorrectly or you feel too much and never listen, rather than anyone making a genuine mistake with no malice behind it.

Maia Dunphy, wife of Johnny Vegas and a TV personality and journalist here in Ireland has just been quoted in the Irish Times as saying "if you want something done well, hire a working mother".

Needless to say she has become a mother in the last couple of years. Shame on you Maia.

Ironic when a lot of women without children are beaten with the career woman/ too busy for kids stick.

I used to work with a woman who was always strutting around the place saying " us mothers work twice as hard as anyone else in order to prove ourselves ".

There was absolutely no evidence of that or any bias against working mothers but she obviously thought it sounded good. No thought to how insulting it was to hardworking colleagues without children.

This particular individual used to take along lunch everyday and go home at four but still managed to have a flexi day 'worked up' every month.

 to all

So since last posting on this thread I have got really knee deep into the impact of infertility and involuntary childlessness on both mental health and female identity

My pile of reading for my book research has gone a bit out of control 🙈

I have read some FANTASTIC books on involuntary childlessness as well as the nature and impact of pronatalist societal assumptions.

I'm going to be doing a bit of a #barrensbookclub deep dive on all these books on my instagram feed should anyone be interested! Or indeed happy to just post a list here should anyone fancy some light bedtime reading ;-)

I wrote an op-ed in the Guardian last week about miscarriage and am now writing an article on infertility and female identity (the conflict between our rational beliefs as 21st century feminists about how a woman's identity & worth isn't being defined by having children - and the sense of failure that unless we become mothers, we feel our lives are somehow incomplete, and questioning our place in society)

I'm really hoping I can do our POV justice - if anyone has any burning thoughts about this that you'd like to see represented, please do either pm me or pop them here, as I really want to try and convey the way that pronatalist society affects our identity when we can't have children.