Things you should never say in front of childless women

[Clothrabbit]

Just following on from another thread I started, what things have childless women on here had said to or in front of them, or read celebs spouting in public, that really hurt or upset them.

For me:

You don't know what real responsibility is until you have a child.
Having a child makes you less selfish.

My dad was in the military, he missed plenty of Christmases and birthdays growing up and it's fine, I seem to have given up pretty unscathed.

MamaOotie just out of curiosity... Was your initial post trying to say that you didn't mind doing that before you had children or was it that you think childless people should be expected to do it?

Because to me there's a very big difference in offering to do something for someone than expecting them to do it for you.

I don't mind offering to work Christmas to help out a colleague who has children. I'd feel pretty differently though if I thought that colleague expected me to do it because I didn't have kids. It would make me feel like I was being viewed as a second class citizen who didn't matter as much.

Genuinely not arguing just curious as to how you meant your initial post, perhaps it's been misinterpreted.

"I'm reading user's comments open-mouth. Her boarish determination to refuse to accept she is being a goady so and so is truly remarkable. The incessant complaints about 'abuse' and 'rudeness' directed at posters simply because they called her out on her (almost admirable) resolve to keep repeating hurtful and insensitive comments, even after numerous posters have tried to explain that they found her comments offensive and could she please stop saying them... It really always is the people who don't give a shit about others' feelings who can't handle being called out on their behaviour and then start playing the martyr, and worse, try to gaslight. If everyone tells you you are being a bit of a dick, take note, you probably are."

This x 1,000.

I am tired of User coming onto this thread, deliberately prodding everyone until she gets a snappy response, and then running around whinging that everyone is being mean to her.

Haven't RTFT but I am child free, by choice (although my DH is trying to get me to change my mind, a thread for another day).

Do not say to me 'oh you will never know REAL love until you have your own child'.

SO PATRONISING !

I know REAL love, I feel REAL love, DEEP REAL love. I do not need to produce a child to feel this REAL and DEEP love that some mothers speak of ! You may not have felt that love until you had your child, but I know I have felt it. Not for a child but for another person.

I think all these are spot on...I knew real love before having a child and after it. Dare I say it, my life was fuller before having a child and more fun in different ways. It's fun now, but in a different way. If you have sick family or are a carer in any sense of the word, then you know responsibility.

But for anyone who isn't a carer and is childfree, then I would say the only one that rings true is how little spare time you have when you have a child (if you don't have family willing to provide unlimited childcare). I was busy before having baby - did masters degree, while pregnant, while working 16 hour days at law firm full time, while got married that year and learnt to drive. BUT, while I was stressed, I could allocate the time I needed to those endeavours. What being a carer does (for child or any other person needing full time supervision), is that you can no longer allocate your time in the same way. I can't say...ooh I'm super busy at work so I'll just work this weekend like I used to. No I need to line up childcare and hope that my child isn't unwell so my plans can go ahead. That I think is the main difference having a child makes. Everything else is just pure exxageration and patronising (i.e. being less selfish, loving more, seeing in colour, being busier).

Happy to be told I'm wrong though!

The thread about what not to say to women who don't have children. Just saying.

As the OP can I re-state my intent when starting this thread.

I wanted it to be a place where those who are involuntarily childless could recount the statements they hear over and over, in various different forms, that cut them to the quick. In this way I thought parents reading the thread would pick up information on how statements, that they've never really thought about that much, can profoundly affect someone hearing them from the viewpoint of yearning for, and not having, a child.

It was not meant to be a thread for parents to come one saying 'but, but....' I know I can't control or dictate how posters respond to a thread I start but I really hoped that, for once, we would be listened to and our feelings and views respected and understood.

A lot of parents have done just that, and thank you.

Some have not, and I would urge you to please just open your ears and hearts and try to understand just why certain remarks, that in the context of your life are innocuous, can be deeply hurtful to someone living with the daily pain of not being able to have a longed for child.

A previous poster asked why I hadn't started this thread on the infertility forum. But there is no point in informing posters on that thread of the deep hurt that certain statements cause. They already know.

To all those who are childless not by choice, may I recommend a couple of books on this subject that may be of interest

Jody Day (founder of Gateway Women - her book
Living the Life Unexpected: 12 Weeks to Your Plan B for a Meaningful and Fulfilling Future Without Children

(can also recommend her TED talk)

Lesley Pyne -
Finding Joy Beyond Childlessness: Inspiring Stories to Guide You to a Fulfilling Life

Dr Lois Tonkin - Motherhood Missed: Stories from Women Who Are Childless by Circumstance

to all whose lives didn't work out how we'd hoped and dreamed

This might also be interesting / useful, also from Jody Day

Women without children in the workplace: a hidden and growing diversity issue

Great recommendations bananafish81. Jody Day also runs an online Google + community called Gateway Women. It's for women who don't have children, for whatever reason, and who need some support with that. It's an incredibly supportive community and I can recommend it very highly if you're feeling isolated, sad, depressed, angry, frustrated or misunderstood because you don't have children

Clothrabbit give it a rest ....

I know REAL love, I feel REAL love, DEEP REAL love. I do not need to produce a child to feel this REAL and DEEP love that some mothers speak of ! You may not have felt that love until you had your child, but I know I have felt it. Not for a child but for another person*

But real love with your child is different and far more than any other real love.
Why isn't a mother allowed to have that view???

I know REAL love, I feel REAL love, DEEP REAL love. I do not need to produce a child to feel this REAL and DEEP love that some mothers speak of ! You may not have felt that love until you had your child, but I know I have felt it. Not for a child but for another person

But real love with your child is different and far more than any other real love.
Why isn't a mother allowed to have that view???

Don't be so rude User. You seem to expect one kind of treatment for yourself, but dish out the complete opposite to everyone else.

Herehere

No one said you couldn't have that view. They are just asking you not to express it as an absolute in front of childless people.

I understand ur reasons for posting this op and even thou i was a mum 20 months ago , i was in mid 30s when had my little girl, i absolutely hated the phase you dont know real love untill u have a child or i now have a purpose, its just not true and makes me so angry , that people would feel the need to say that to someone. And i also dont agree with childless people having to wotk over holidays because of their coworkers being parents. Its just unfair, someone without children has a family and has as much right to spend Christmas with them as anyone else.

For instance Herehere

If I went around saying no one knows what real sadness feels like until they've lost a parent, that wouldn't be fair to the many people who haven't lost a parent but have still had sad and traumatic things happen to them in life.
It is the saddest thing that's happened to me (apart from not being able to have children) but that doesn't mean it's the saddest thing that can happen to anyone.

@Herehere66

We're not saying you can't say that about your own experience

We're saying that saying this to a childless woman is hurtful

Because it's rubbing our faces in the fact that there's a depth of love you're boasting about that we may never feel

If you love running would you tell someone in a wheelchair that the only way one can ever feel truly exhilarated is to go for a run?

Knowing that's something they can't do, but would give anything to be able to?

Fine to say to your running buddies. But if you'd say that directly to someone who will never be able to experience that joy, don't you think that would be cruel?

Maybe you don't.

Would you go into a room full of disabled people sharing how difficult they find their lives never being able to walk, and say 'yeah but actually there IS no better high than running, it's TRUE'

Don't you think that might not be the time or place to express that view that you're clearly entitled to hold

Don't you think that perhaps kindness about when and how you express that view might be considerate?

Also do you think that women who abuse their children know REAL love more than someone who has loving relationships with a beloved partner, nieces, nephews etc

Is their love for their children, that they express through neglect and abuse, more REAL and TRUE than any love that anyone who doesn't have children could ever possibly experience EVER?

chicken2015 I agree so much. I actually think it's very very entitled to expect your Co workers to sacrifice their Christmas (or other holidays) with their own family because you decided to have a child and think you deserve some sort of privileged treatment because of it. Using 'but think of the children not opening presents with their parents!' is such a guilt trip. As plenty of us have said on this thread, we had parents who weren't there every single Christmas & we were perfectly okay. I'm not mentally scarred because my dad had to work the odd shift over Christmas.

bananafish81 & clothrabbit those examples are literally spot on but I don't think people realise that it's literally the same. Those people who've been awful on this thread would be the same people who'd never dream of saying one of the above examples to someone with a disability.

Perhaps because our problems can't be seen by the naked eye they don't count for as much when it comes to sensitivity hey?

Clothrabbit not at all. You and others are the agressive ones. Many people have said it.
If someone has a slightly different view then you jump at them.

I undestand that you and others emotions are running high as it is a delicate subject. However it does not give the right to be rude and agressive.

If someone has a slightly different view then you jump at them.

But this thread wasn't about garnering 'different views'. The intention was to collate comments that people have found painful, not debate the truth behind them. It's quite surprising that after 625 posts that isn't blindingly obvious.

CalonGas - oh, I think it is very obvious to User/Herehere (surprisingly similar points of view/style/times of posting there ).

Luckily those posts seem to be in the minority and the links that Bananafish has posted will hopefully help anyone struggling who finds this thread