Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

Remainer my arse.

This is actually the latest trend in trying to disrupt rational political debate - to pretend to be on the other side "but you have to admit etc etc" It's the Putin/Bannon playbook - you don't actually have to persuade anyone of your case - you just make it impossible to have rational debate at all.

It's actually impossible to read Macron's words and construe them as being insulting to May if you're using your rational brain. People trying to construct them in this way are deliberately bypassing rationality.

. The UK attended in good faith

We turned up unprepared with a plan that was insulting in its stupidly but you expect us to be treated with respect.

The arrogance of British voters is stunning.

HPFA I disagree. The politics of Brexit are becoming entrenched and overly simplistic if anything and I think any effort to see the nuances of the arguments on both sides, especially when the subject matter is so complex is a good thing.

It's actually impossible to read Macron's words and construe them as being insulting to May if you're using your rational brain. People trying to construct them in this way are deliberately bypassing rationality.

Yes, this. Admittedly I'm looking in from the outside, being a Briton in Europe who's about to lose a bunch of rights, but the reaction of some people on here seems like a sort of mass hysteria. How can anyone read Macron's words and not think "well, he does have a point"?

And yes, the "I'm a remainer" lies irk me. Maybe we should start doing a search on usernames every time someone claims that.

I am a remainer, not a die hard like some on here. That does not make me any less of a remainer Juells we are not all like you. Some of us have some real doubts now, and you just putting your fingers in your ears and singing is not going to change the fact that the EU have behaved with utter contempt. Even the most ardent of us are finding it hard to swallow.

Your lying OP.

Indeed, HPFA. The cliched: "I'm one of you, but [puts case for other side]."

There was a specific campaign identified in the US which pumped out social media posts saying, "I've been a Democrat all my life but couldn't possibly vote for them now because X." And there's a lot of it on MN before elections.

Of course faceless social media is just perfect for such methods.

(NB I'm not saying people genuinely never change who they vote for. Just that, there are people who are genuine. And there's the OP here.)

Real doubts because the EU are being mean?

Honesty?

Your whole view is changing because the EU are negotiating like gown ups and not giving us our turn because we are their friend?

So all the information you had about the economy, trade, workers rights etc is being dismissed cos he was mean to us?

Really?

So OP, what did you think your leave-voting friends were wrong about?

I hate how arrogant we british are. The EU owes us nothing and we are going to suffer through a no deal. It will be entirely our fault.

The politics of Brexit are becoming entrenched and overly simplistic if anything and I think any effort to see the nuances of the arguments on both sides, especially when the subject matter is so complex is a good thing.

But you can't have any debate about Brexit which doesn't start from a position of rational discourse.

Now, if someone says "Brexit will help poorer people" we can look at that and debate whether it's true or not. But if you just keep repeating "Brexit was the rebellion of the underprivileged" but then refuse to engage in a conversation about whether in fact Brexit will benefit the underprivileged then what is there to discuss? If there was clear evidence that, say, the wages of the lower paid will rise 20% after Brexit then it's perfectly fine to say the middle classes should give up the benefits of freedom of movement. But don't keep insisting that we should give up these benefits "because the underprivileged want Brexit" when you can't produce any convincing evidence that there will be any benefit to them.

I can't even remember when I last saw a serious attempt at arguing there will be practical benefits of Brexit. All we have now is risible attempts to blame the Thatcher led destruction of manufacturing on the EU.

You may find in reality lots of people are feeling uncomfortable about this now. It may not play out to your narrative, but I voted remain, but I am very unhappy. Quietly many of us feel a sense of disquiet this morning.

I think Macron she be applauded for speaking the truth about Brexit. We were lied to.

I also think May now needs to go,an elected needs to be called and the Brexit date pushed back as was indicated it could be if this was to happen.

We were lied to,the Brexit campaign was won on lies and broken election rules re funding. This government is unfit to govern.Many people are starting to realise how duped they were and how much fake news has to answer for. The US can turn a blind eye to the shit storm they're living,we don't have to.We need an election,Teresa May needs to do the right thing and go.She didn't cause half this shite but she could help to put an end to it ie put the country first before her career.

There are also lots of europeans making their case this morning, it is good to see how. How you can defend a man like Tusk making fun of a diabetic person is beyond me. I always considered Tusk to be man of some integrity, but no his silly tweets places him firmly with the stupidity of Trump and the rest.

How has MN left this troll up for so long?

For anyone who is genuinely interested in what happened in Salzburg, this is an excellent article:

www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2018/0921/995292-salzburg-chronic-misreading/

HazardswanI take real exception to be called a troll, I have been on MN since the birth of my first child. I will report you if you continue to insult me.

Feel free to start your own thread, but this one we decided about eight hundred posts ago would be cordial and if we have to get you removed we will.

perkingfaintly

It's infested all social media platforms, even ones discussing unimportant issues. I'm a tennis fan and on forums you now get "I'm a Federer fan but you have to admit that Nadal is the greatest player that ever lived" and vice versa. It's incredibly annoying and it's just aimed at making sensible discussion impossible, which is what Bannon and his cohorts want.

Snowy

Perhaps in order to convince us who are still unpersuaded you could actually go through the Macron statement published by the French Embassy and explain why it is insulting? Like - quote a sentence and say "this is insulting to May because it implies etc"

I think the behaviour's actually been around since the ark. But the combined immediacy and anonymity of social media has greatly increased its potency.

As you say, it make honest discussion much harder.

Snowymountainsalways I said you were being paid to post this stuff ages ago. Feel free to report me too.