Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

Autumnwindy no the original referendum did not spell out how the EU would evolve. But we are a representative democracy. That's how the U.K. is governed. Our sovereign parliament makes decisions on our behalf.

The EU we are a member of now was negotiated by our governments who we voted for who made decisions on our behalf.

Referenda are the exception not the rule. They are advisory and parliament is sovereign.

For the life of me I can not understand how Brexit supporters want U.K. democracy but fail to understand the first things about it.

Hpfa.

I do wonder how people can exist in such a bubble.
You don't seem to take on board that millions of peoples standard of living dived suddenly over night and thier way of making a living was gone, their standard of living plummeted and so on.

The divide will never be crossed. Labour will never get thier voters back either if they don't cross that bridge.

I see and hear chukka when I read posts like that.

You don't seem to take on board that millions of peoples standard of living dived suddenly over night and thier way of making a living was gone, their standard of living plummeted and so on.

Did they? When? How? Why?

If you're going to make these bold claims then please back them up with verifiable examples.

I highly doubt there will be no deal. The EU need one just as much as we do. Macron/Merkel are just pissed they are going to have to contribute more as a result of us leaving.

Autumnwindy people in the U.K. have been screwed over by U.K. governments.

I don't live in a bubble I know why people are pissed off and I know who is at fault and is not the EU it is successive U.K. governments.

MousseMoose makes a really good point about most of the serious and valid concerns being nothing to do with the EU. They are not. But when the press and politicians broadcast that they are the cause, and no one rebuts the arguments sensibly, then that it's the EU's fault is the lasting impression.

I am deeply conflicted on this whole argument. Being old enough (just) to have voted to join in the 70s, I can see the wealth membership has brought, as well as the cultural benefits, and I can also see that a lot of people who live near me, who don't have the advantages of tertiary education or the desire to "get on their bikes" feel that their wages and standard of living have not improved much past agricultural peasant level, while simultaneously finding themselves working well past the age of retirement in most of Europe and still not being able to find reliable care for an ageing deaf parent with dementia (who, being English with only schoolgirl French) can't deal with a Lithuanian with a strong accent.

I don't pretend to know the answers, but my experience suggests that the whole mess needs a great deal more subtlety and nuance than politicians are capable of delivering.

The creation of a single European market - which is far more than a "trading bloc" - was actively pushed by the British. And you can't have a single market without regulatory alignment.

The British aren't in the Euro or Schengen, which are the parts of the European project where you could legitimately make an argument about it being more than just trade.

A Lithuanian with a strong accent who cares enough to do the job is better than no one at all.

I highly doubt there will be no deal. The EU need one just as much as we do. Macron/Merkel are just pissed they are going to have to contribute more as a result of us leaving

What are you basing this staggering insight on?

The government does not appear willing to do a deal which is acceptable to the EU.

There are currently no indications that a deal is likely to be done.

Voting for a trading bloc is one thing.

Slowly by stealth inching towards an eu empire is another.
Our representatives... Who we voted for, me included, I voted for Tony Blair... Showed us they could not be trusted and they could not be trusted full stop. But also that they could not be trusted to put our interests, the interests of the British public first within the framework of this morphed eu.

Who has the power, why have they got it etc and how do we get rid of them. Blah blah.

The EU need one just as much as we do

They really don't.

They'd prefer a deal, obviously. But no deal will hurt us far, far more than them. Which is why May's grandstanding today is so totally pointless. If we really want to shoot ourselves in the foot they'll let us go right ahead.

Try telling DMIL that!

No, the Brexit vote means that those of us who didn't want it will be forced to live in a country that is poorer, more divided, where people have fewer rights, our environment is less protected, where food standards are lower and my right to live, work and retire to an EU country has been taken away. No-on even pretends anymore that there will be any benefits to this

But I certainly will not give up my right to call this absurd shitshow what it is and I will not pretend it's some kind of unavoidable natural disaster. To "get behind Brexit" is to betray future generations who need to understand what happens when empty slogans take over from rational thought

Great post.

We have indeed narrowed our children's futures - and our grandchildren's - with this vote. Their lives will be poorer in every sense as a result.

The EU need one just as much as we do

No, they don't.

Autumn, let's try again.

Can we have some specific examples rather than vague statements?

But also that they could not be trusted to put our interests, the interests of the British public first within the framework of this morphed eu

What are these interests of the British public that have been sidelined by the EU?

Ethel. Why don't you know this? Everyone knows cheap European labour suddenly flooded the market and under cut British workers with more expensive living costs.
This happened at the exact same time as the global crash.

But Ethel, surely you know this? Every political party in the UK has now admitted this.

Autumnwindy you ask "who has the power?" As I have mentioned several times - that would be parliament. The U.K.'s sovereign parliament. The parliament that governs the country.

In full public view, with parliamentary votes where necessary our governments, supported by parliament voted for closer ties to Europe.

No stealth was involved. I knew about it. It was published in newspapers and discussed on news programmes, you got to vote in elections. No stealth was involved.

This wasn't hidden it was in election manifestos, it was debated and discussed.

Stop using the word stealth. It simply and demonstrably is not true.

I honestly don't know how anyone can have missed this!

This is one of the huge reasons why so many people voted leave. People voted leave for a myriad of reasons just like people voted remain for so many different reasons. I could list loads on both sides, argue equally for both sides.

Why are some remain posters ignorant of these issues. They have all been hashed over endlessly on TV, in papers, on forums, in rl.
Well done to have by passed it all

Laurie, the descion to flood the British Labour Market with cheap eu Labour. Under cutting millions of small businesses, one man bands etc.

How can you not know this.

I think that the members of the EU should be reminded that twice within living memory this country has saved them from occupation and enslavement.
This at a cost of the sacrifice of the lives of thousands of our men who had to fight to liberate them from there invaders.
How soon this seems to have been forgotten by our so called allies and friends, we are owed a debt of honour that they now have a chance of repaying.

YABU. Macron told the truth, we were lied to about a fantasy future outside the EU that could never happen. The referendum result is meaningless and to leave without a deal is utter economic suicide for the UK.

@Vicky1990 you are a fool and a charlatan.

Vicky1990
Ahahahahahahahahahahaha

No one else fought those wars no?

Mousse, did you not read all the Blair stuff, the suppression, rejection of so many issues head in sand and good old mumsnet gas lighting of the population. It was in the media a while back.