Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

The UK has its own issues at the moment.

That's the understatement of the century.

All countries have issues but the UK is currently the only one whose people voted to fuck their own economy up and tear their own social fabric to pieces in an ill advised referendum and are currently to stubborn and/or stupid to say no to the crazy stuff being done in their name.

Yeah plus rereading we didn't suss for a while

While the possible rise of the far right in many countries is obviously a concern, the 'special' thing about those in mainland Europe is they understand the real terror behind this.
Northern France is littered with beautifully maintained cemeteries with hundreds of thousands who died making Europe a better place to live. There is a cemetery with 809 graves with fallen soldiers and airmen from all around the world a few miles from me.
The village where I live, the main square is named after the day a Scottish regiment removed the German soldiers.
The experience of the British public was not the same, it was not occupied by Germany.
Of course there is 'rivalry' and there are problems but there is a willingness to sort things out. Pathetic 'jingoism' by many in the UK isn't helping matters and shows complete lack of empathy.
The town where I live has no shops boarded up and only a couple of rather smart 'charity' shops.

Ethel your posts are very forceful.

Many people would say the UK did all those things when it merged into a political union with the eu, instead of just staying as a trading bloc.
Such close political union has never ever worked across Europe. Any union in any form does not work.

Any big change will be problematic.
The French know that very well, the home of the revolution.
They didn't waltz into versailles and ask the king to rescind his throne.

The revolution took decades, different waves of different issues.

This isn't a revolution but its a huge change obviously and yes, it will take time, ups and downs..

Ethel, just a touch of hyperbole there don't you think?

For balance, Robert Peston (super committed Remainer) visited the regions of Britain which voted OVERWHELMINGLY IN FAVOUR OF BREXIT (apologies for the capitals) and then wrote a whole book saying that he did understand why they felt their interests had been overlooked and ignored by the clever people who know best.

A couple of very liberal Democrats have actually been to the South and the Midwest, and have come back similarly altered, not to Donald Trump, but to an understanding of why so many "ordinary" people feel they have been sold short by previous administrations, to explain why Trump (and Farage) won.

I am not going to suggest that I like, approve or sympathise with either of those lying charlatans, but they have have tapped into a vein of disaffection deep within people who live ordinary lives in provincial towns and villages who try to do the right thing most of the time. And a lot of such people feel that their interests have been sidelined in favour of the rich and powerful on one side, and in favour of the newest poorest arrivals on the other. The perception (right or wrong) is that politicians have bent over backwards to accommodate the oligarchs and their fortunes, and handed too much to barely documented migrants fleeing to a better life, for fear of being described as racist. If you're not rich or a migrant, you don't count is the message that swathes of middle England have heard, and Brexit was their response.

Any observer can look at the U.K. and identify we are fucking cluster fuck of a country.

Maybe go for a walk away from the estate? Once you get past the dealers & old mattresses you might find the nice bits..

I'm not experiencing anything in the UK that my staff in Germany & France aren't or my parents in Spain.

Half of you lot seem to think the rest of the EU countries are rolling in flowers & unicorns!! Germany is as much a shit tip as we are, there are no-go areas in some of the cities & my guys are moaning that the neighbourhoods are full of immigrant gangs. Taxes are going up, the government is a cluster fuck, jobs are outsourcing to the East, India & China......

I'm quite happy here & am looking forward to saying "told you so" in 5 years time.....

Many people would say the UK did all those things when it merged into a political union with the eu, instead of just staying as a trading bloc.

But a quick glance at any statistics about how our economy grew after we joined the EU would quickly reveal those people to be talking utter codswallop, so why are we giving these imaginary friends of yours people any head space?

I'm quite happy here & am looking forward to saying "told you so" in 5 years time.....

I really wouldn't hold your breath if I were you.

Let's see if planes are still flying and supply chains are still functioning in April, shall we?

Take a moment to breathe deeply Ethel, please. I am worrying that you'll hyperventilate.

DontBoreMe I will make the effort to walk "off the estate" it's tricky stepping over the dealers who live on the doorstep.

However, I did manage to catch the news today. The U.K. was being humiliated on a European stage. The PM making vacuous comments. The opposition noticeable by its absence. Parliament too weak to do its job.

If that isn't a cluster fuck I don't know what is. FPTP is good because it produces strong governments, my fucking arse. No written constitution because parliament is flexible ffs.

Constitutional crisis due to weak politicians and a clueless electorate.

Seriously, if you have any intelligence to suggest that these things are actually going to be resolved before Brexit day, can you please leak it to the press? I need to transfer about ten grand into euros and the exchange rate is just getting worse every day.

Germany is as much a shit tip as we are, there are no-go areas in some of the cities

Please tell me where one might find these ‘no-go areas’?

No I was talking about the disaster that was to align ourselves politically and socially with the eu rather than staying as what. Was. Voted. For. Back in the day.

A trading bloc and nothing else.

Pushing us closer together by stealth has caused this... As you say... Or what you would call a cluster fuck.

Anyway, back to frank field he said ages ago we need a cross party government like in the war to get us through and this is what we need a brexit, pure and simple, brexit cabinet. Cross party.

You couldn't say "I told you so". I don't want to leave Europe because I consider myself European. I'm stuck in the UK. I don't want the country to go tits up. I don't want Brexit to be a failure. If by some miracle it works out I'll be as relieved as the next person. But I won't accept your 'I told you so' because you've taken away what I consider my identity.

Does anyone think we would be further ahead if instead of wasting time arguing about whether brexit is real, whether anyone understood it, everyone had actually got behind it to make it happen!?

The people I see on telly Moaning about the situation are the very people doing everything they can to derail it.

I can't see how we can proceed like this.

Once again cross party brexit cabinet.
If.. Such a cabinet had been formed from the get go we would definitely have a plan, strategy and clear aims by now.

You're missing the point. Being in the EU has been a massive advantage to the UK and the country has become vastly richer because of it.

If that wealth hasn't been shared around more evenly, we need to look much closer to home to find those responsible. (The EU has a long established policy of directing targeted regional aid at deprived areas to boost their local economies.)

"Political union" is a red herring. Almost all EU law is related to the single market and therefore has its roots in, you've guessed it, the principle of a trading union.

Autumnwindy ok I have explained this many times on many threads. We are a representative democracy. We don't normally hold referenda.

We have moved closer to the EU through negotiations between our elected governments and the EU. Our democratically elected governments are allowed to do this. The governments we elect to our sovereign parliaments are allowed to make decisions on our behalf - that is how representative democracy works.

No stealth was involved. None. Nope to the stealth. It was a no stealth zone. Democratically elected governments, voted for in General elections negotiated the deals in public. No stealth was involved.

If you didn't notice that is your fault.

Does anyone think we would be further ahead if instead of wasting time arguing about whether brexit is real, whether anyone understood it, everyone had actually got behind it to make it happen!?

No, I don't.

The options are stay in the single market and customs union, or have a hard Brexit, hard border in Ireland and a fucked economy.

"Getting behind Brexit" won't magically make other options become available.

And as usual - you don't understand why people voted Leave etc etc.

I daresay they voted Leave to make their lives better, to have better public services, housing, secure jobs. It's just a shame that Brexit isn't going to deliver any of those things - less money for public services, no money for social housing, fewer employment rights. And hey, the EU never stopped us from investing in public services, building council houses, improving employment rights (some EU countries ban zero hours contracts)

So maybe all those people telling us about the problems of the average Leave voter might be better employed explaining to those Leave voters why the EU was not responsible for those problems and therefore, logically, leaving the EU cannot solve them.

HPFA the thing is it's hard to argue against a negative.

To explain to people that their valid concerns are NOT caused by the EU despite the fact politicians and the press have blamed the EU for everything for the last 40 years.

HPFA I couldn’t agree more.
I think for me one of the main issues in the referendum was not so much the lies told during the campaign itself, as the lies told by our governments and press over many, many years. Scapegoating of the EU and EU migrants for our own leaders shortcomings over such a long period of time has played a big part in the publics view of the EU. I wonder how many years after leaving the EU it will take for people to realise that these issues have been caused by our own government and not the bogey man EU.

Oops Moussemoose posted at the same time 😁

everyone had actually got behind it to make it happen!?

No, the Brexit vote means that those of us who didn't want it will be forced to live in a country that is poorer, more divided, where people have fewer rights, our environment is less protected, where food standards are lower and my right to live, work and retire to an EU country has been taken away. No-on even pretends anymore that there will be any benefits to this.

But I certainly will not give up my right to call this absurd shitshow what it is and I will not pretend it's some kind of unavoidable natural disaster. To "get behind Brexit" is to betray future generations who need to understand what happens when empty slogans take over from rational thought.

Oh I see Ethel.

So the closer political and social union only exists because of the original trading bloc idea.

OK. I wonder if this was properly spelled out back in the day. Did people realise back then what they were voting for.
It's just so many of that generation were vilified for voting leave when in fact a good proportion actually voted us into a trading bloc and then, seeing what that morphed into during thier life time... Decided to vote leave.
Because the nature of what they voted for had changed.

So the closer political and social union only exists because of the original trading bloc idea.

You're going to have to be more specific. Can you give an example of an EU law we have to comply with which you think is overstepping the mark because it's about "political" or "social union"?