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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Macron's behaviour is despicable

999 replies

Snowymountainsalways · 21/09/2018 09:50

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Ta1kinpeace · 21/09/2018 21:18

I have to work with lots and lots of committed Brexiteers - the type who do fundraising lunches for Rees Mogg and Chope

when pushed, every single one of their identified problems with "Yerp" in fact sources back to Whitehall

and will be worse after Brexit, not better

they will be so angry

foggetyfog · 21/09/2018 21:18

OFFS Vicky1990 don't mention the war. It ended 70 years ago.

BadderWolf · 21/09/2018 21:19

How can you not know this.

Because it's total bullshit, decimated in minute detail by the extensive Bank of England report on this specific issue?

HPFA · 21/09/2018 21:19

You don't seem to take on board that millions of peoples standard of living dived suddenly over night and thier way of making a living was gone, their standard of living plummeted and so on.

Actually, I do know about all of that. I'm a Northerner and grew up under the Thatcher era. My own father was out of work.

And you know whose fault that was? A Thatcher government supported by people who thought unemployment and crappy public services was "a price worth paying" for lower taxes.A BRITISH government elected by BRITISH voters. Nothing to do with the EU.

So well done on taking us out of a body that did at least give us some protection from the excesses of laissez faire capitalism. You think employment rights aren't great now? Wait till Liam Fox gets hold of them.

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 21:20

The 'UK positions are put to the EU by MEPs. If some of those are 'lacklustre' and fail to discuss what the UK would like adequately whose 'fault' is that.
Exhibit A, a certain Mr Farage, more likely to be found in a bar than in debates in Brussels.
Fishing quotas lost because the UK MEPs were 'asleep at the wheel'.
Other Europeans 'won' those issues because they were 'bright eyed and bushy tailed' and not hampered with 'The great I am' mentality.
Reading the rules also helps, Mrs MAY.

Moussemoose · 21/09/2018 21:21

All the treaties that tied us closely to the EU were negotiated by U.K. governments and, when necessary, voted on by parliament.

This is not stealth.

HPFA · 21/09/2018 21:21

By the way, any chance of the German carmakers coming to save us? Or is this the one Brexit myth that has been killed off by reality?

EthelThePiratesDaughter · 21/09/2018 21:22

Thank you BadderWolf.

I typed out a long and scathing reply to that post three times, and my phone kept eating it. But yours was more succinct.

XingMing · 21/09/2018 21:23

The fault, or failure of vision, was in the decision of the Blair government not to control migration from the accession countries. They came, did shit jobs, worked hard, put down roots, paid taxes and have been a huge factor in any recent prosperity the UK has enjoyed.

But it was a large number of people moving to better their lot in life, generally at the lower skilled and paid levels that has displaced the less thrusting UK population. Of course employers love them. But if you want an easy life, and reasonably priced decent rented accommodation and to be able to get an appointment at the doctor in under four weeks, and all this was once taken for granted and now isn't, then the EU and its rules are an easy target for blame.

HPFA · 21/09/2018 21:25

all the Blair stuff,

Blair should have built more Council Houses, he should have made the case better for progressive taxation, he ran scared of the Daily Mail. Again, nothing to do with the EU.

Seriously, this stuff is not hard to understand. Health, education, public services, these are all in the hands of the UK government.

user1457017537 · 21/09/2018 21:27

Vicky1990 we did indeed liberate France and fought the Germans at great cost to millions of families. Labour is anti-Semitic but that is being ignored as well. The vote was tight but was won by the Leave side, Remainers would rather cut off their nose to spite their face than insist on a fair deal for the UK

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 21:29

Since the UK has told the major carmakers to 'F off' in the charming words of BoJo, and unless a proper deal is made, will be backing up the sentiment by making it uneconomical to continue car and other manufacturing in the UK they will indeed go elsewhere.
There is rising unemployment in many parts of the EU and I would anticipate a fair scramble to accommodate industry wanting to relocate.
Honda has said it will stay in Swindon, for a while but building cars for less than they cost will not continue for long.

user1457017537 · 21/09/2018 21:31

HPFA that may be true but we all know that pensions are far higher in France and Belgium. They have better healthcare. Greeks were retiring in their 40s. Spanish pensioners get sent on holiday by their government to keep hotels running during the winter.

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 21:33

The UK and many hundreds of thousands from the Commonwealth helped defeat the Germans. Over egging the pudding again.
Having joined in the war we had to send stonking amounts of cash to the USA for equipment and supplies.

EthelThePiratesDaughter · 21/09/2018 21:35

Ethel. Why don't you know this? Everyone knows cheap European labour suddenly flooded the market and under cut British workers with more expensive living costs. This happened at the exact same time as the global crash.

But Ethel, surely you know this? Every political party in the UK has now admitted this.

Right, OK, let's break this down.

Firstly, the Eastern European expansion happened in 2004, a good few years before the financial crisis, and the UK was one of the most vehement cheerleaders for those countries' accession.

Secondly, they didn't arrive "overnight", and there were never "millions" of them. Net immigration has been what, in the hundreds of thousands per year? Including non-EU immigration, students, children and plenty of others not actually competing with Darren from Barnsley for all those lucrative plumbing jobs. So it doesn't really equate to "millions" of British people suddenly finding their standard of living destroyed overnight, does it?

You do look daft when you exaggerate like that.

Thirdly, from an evidential point of view, it is not actually clear that those workers have put downward pressure on wages. Which is a bit awkward for the purposes of your argument.

And finally, even if there is a grain of truth in what you say (albeit wildly exaggerated), the UK had the power to limit immigration from those countries, and has always had the power to require EU immigrants to go home if they are not self-supporting within three months. We could take a moment to ponder on the phenomenon of the "Schroedinger's immigrant" - simultaneously stealing our jobs and leeching off our welfare system - but let's just pause for a moment and reflect on the fact that the UK government did not make any effort to reduce or control EU immigration because - and this is the really awkard part - it's been really good for the economy.

Now when those people have gone home (which will not happen because of our immigration policy after Brexit, because we will still need those people, but because the UK will no longer be a pleasant or lucrative place to live and work), you might have "got your country back", but will you be able to get a plumber when you need one? Or someone to take care of your elderly father who has dementia? (Yes I know he'd prefer someone without a strong Lithuanian accent but the reality is that young British people are not actually queuing up to wipe geriatric bottoms for 7 quid an hour.) And the NHS might have fewer immigrants using it but not much since the EU workers we're up in arms about are mostly young and healthy and don't tend to need a lot of healthcare, but there will also be fewer doctors and nurses and a lot less money floating around in the economy to pay for it all.

So who is going to be better off? Who will actually gain from this?

user1457017537 · 21/09/2018 21:35

We also had to rebuild Germany

Moussemoose · 21/09/2018 21:36

Well the voice of reason has arrived on the thread. user1457017537 thank you very much for clarifying these complex issues.

Lurkers - just read what these pro Brexit fools type and make your decisions!

EthelThePiratesDaughter · 21/09/2018 21:37

Remainers would rather cut off their nose to spite their face than insist on a fair deal for the UK

The Tories are doing an awful lot of "insisting" at the moment and getting fuck all.

I'm a remainer. Do you think it would help if I hop on a train to Brussels tomorrow, track Michel Barnier down to whatever bistro he's having lunch in and "insist on a fair deal for the UK"?

I mean, seriously, what the fuck are you even talking about?

Ta1kinpeace · 21/09/2018 21:37

user1457017537
pensions are far higher in France and Belgium
And income taxes are nearly double those in the UK to pay for it
They have better healthcare
Because their government chooses to fund it through higher taxes
Greeks were retiring in their 40s
Hence why Greece is financially screwed and being run by the IMF
Spanish pensioners get sent on holiday by their government to keep hotels running during the winter.
Link please

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 21:37

Tax is rather higher in France too, but then quite a bit 'returns' through amenities. The UK may be a lower tax regime but fails to return it to citizens to improve their lives, which brings it neatly to what many of the leavers were really complaining about. Trouble is you can't have low tax and high standard welfare at the same time.

XingMing · 21/09/2018 21:41

It's been a lovely war. Can we please look forward to making some peace please? Does anyone have any suggestions for the future, or are we doomed to argue in ever decreasing small circles? People who voted out did so based on their personal experiences and expectations. Just telling them that they are wrong, racist or failures is unlikely to win them round.

1tisILeClerc · 21/09/2018 21:45

I had dinner with a former EU general secretary last year. He sumarised the Brexit part of the discussion by 'What the hell are you thinking'. We then moved swiftly on to more essential things like food.
Greece was a bit 'optimistic' about it's financial position, and failed to collect tax it is due, which is a significant amount of their problems.

Ta1kinpeace · 21/09/2018 21:46

XingMing
Sadly the nature of the Brexit lies is such that the philosophical rupture is very, very deep
and there is no "higher cause" to rally behind.
Its a class and generational issue - which is the most dangerous
and I cannot see an easy way to get to where we need to be from where we are

borntobequiet · 21/09/2018 21:49

We also had to rebuild Germany
Who are you? The USA?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

XingMing · 21/09/2018 21:50

Ta1kingpeace, I wish I could disagree.

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