Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

Why would the UK keep EU citizens if they are not prepared to do the same?

I guess that's based on the EU not wanting to keep UK citizens, and frankly I don't think that's very likely either

Self interested politicians may pose and sabre-rattle, but I don't expect employers, etc, are likely to go along with mass ejection of reliable folk who are known to them and make a contribution

Nobody pretends this whole thing is or will be problem free, but neither does the level of hysteria seem warranted

user1457017537 Alan sugar or similar?

I am not sure Barnier is doing a very good job, nothing to say otherwise so far. No progress whatsoever during talks.

He is the EU's Chief Negotiator and May has been told over and over again that he is the person to talk to. Which is why pushing out people like Ivan Rogers was such a stupid mistake. Only this summer ministers were wasting time flitting around Europe rather than negotiating.

Again, this isn't about blaming May for not doing a perfect job, Cameron landed us in this mess and there was no good way out. But May has never taken the least worst option and seems to have listened to the reality deniers rather than the pragmatists.

EthelThePiratesDaughter

If was such a good and easy option why on earth didn't they choose that route then? Lets be honest about it, because most of those leavers would have screamed sell out I am assuming unless you think there is another reason?

Snowy you reply to Maxthemartian's post as if she had posted something else. To whom exactly are you listening on EEA? What is your place/knowledge on all this?

Additionally there is plenty May and her team have not thought of/ decided to ignore.

Can I just ask this? If there were a second ref and that result was to remain, so we called all the negotiations off and did actually remain, what would that be like? Wouldn't we have to beg and just accept crumbs. Wouldn't the likes of Macron throw their weight around with us?

If was such a good and easy option why on earth didn't they choose that route then? Lets be honest about it, because most of those leavers would have screamed sell out I am assuming unless you think there is another reason?

They didn't choose that route because May is allowing the hard Brexiters to dictate her Brexit policy rather than doing what is in the best interests of the country.

It is a simple case of the people sceaming the loudest getting what they want, even if they're not a majority and what they want is going to be detrimental to everyone else.

HPFA

That is incorrect. Raab should be talking with Barnier. Of course, but not TM as she is a PM and will always speak at the highest level with other leaders.

TM is never going to talk to Barnier and will always operate at a different level that much is obvious and normal for global relations. As soon as she became personally involved, and she does seem to have taken over the process it was all going to change the dynamics.

We'd be an incredibly weak voice Jux and it would serve us right.

I don't have extreme views that we absolutely have to do anything

This is where I (respectfully but completely) disagree with you.
No deal is the very definition of extreme. Thats much more extreme than staying where we are now.

May's team seems to be taking the view that the outcome of Brexit doesn't matter, because anything bad that happens can be blamed on anyone but them and the public will buy it.

Going by this thread, I can see there's something to that.

If we did just press rewind in reality what would that mean? Do we suppose everything will just reset as it was before?

I would like to think so, but really I am not at all sure.

No they wont, its an amount over decades. Do you know the size of the EU's combined GDP ?
We are spending more than that building a railway no one wants.

It’s the £39bn plus no more ongoing contributions or one off payments for the big common projects. We are the second biggest economy in the EU. France is just behind us, Italy are quite a way behind that and have a hostile government so they’re not going to be in a rush to help out. Then you’re down to Spain which is less than half of our GDP and has a serious unemployment problem and a potential civil war on it’s hands. Then it’s Netherlands, Sweden. Then Poland who they’re threatening to kick out. I could go on but there are many countries in the EU which are not wealthy plus some like Greece and Ireland are in hock to the others.

All of their economies will take a hit, I don’t think losing British visitors is going to do much for Greece, Spain and even France will take a hit from that.

They’re giving it the big man now but in the case of a no deal Brexit they are going to have a lot of explaining to do to disgruntled voters in their countries who are on the receiving end of those hits.

It reminded me of an awful divorce battle. One partner comes in being all nice and reasonable and prepared to compromise thinking their ex will be adult about it and go for a quick and reasonable settlement, then their ex comes in all guns blazing determined to walk away with everything.

Also this whole process has exposed an uglier part of the EU that I have not seen before.

I voted leave but would have accepted the EEA and EFTA if it had been on offer.

I find Macron appalling- he is governed by his male ego.

In my view (not popular on here I know), it is in the EU's interests to make this as difficult for us as possible because a) there are other countries who may well move in the sam3 direction and they want to put them off and b) they want to punish us.

It is perfectly possible for the EU to behave helpfully towards us. We have not done anything illegal. Any member country can choose to no longer be part of the EU. We are paying billions already as a type of compensation/punishment/fine. They are making it more difficult because they want to.

Jux They have said the terms would be as before.

Mrs May was being highly disrespectful by turning up with the Chequers document that was rejected over 2 months ago and demanding that it is the only deal

I wouldn't say "disrespectful", exactly. Pointless, perhaps - but then I've long thought it pointless as I honestly don't believe the EU would agree to anything that didn't involve us simply shutting up and continuing to hand over the cash

For me, their self-serving adherence to the ever expanding "project" has long outstripped the usefulness that project once had

France has overtaken us as an economy now, I believe.

Here's the explanation about how we could have controlled immigration better, had we wanted to. But of course the government's own enquiries have proved that we benefit massively from EU immigration, but there we go:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html

It is perfectly possible for the EU to behave helpfully towards us.

By doing what?

Please give an example of something they could do which would be helpful to us and not involve breaching a fundamental principle of EU law.

1tisILeClerc How long does it take to get registered and where to immigrants life if they can’t rent before registration ?

Mrs May was being disrespectful:

Talking to leaders when she's been asked to deal with the person they've appointed to lead negotiations.

Making a meeting about something quite different all about Brexit.

Reading out a posturing speech that everyone had already read in an article when everyone was exhausted from discussing what was actually on the agenda.

Responding with a flat 'no' to a position that hadn't been formally released.

Not having a position ready (even by October!!) on the Irish border when the EU have made a proposal about it, then complaining about the work that they have done.

The UK is yet to propose anything to the EU that is in any way compatible with EU or international law.
When it does, the EU will consider it.
Until it does there is little the EU can do except reiterate the requirements of the legal obligations.

Thanks for all of your posts. It has remained completely polite! Really glad we could debate this with respect.

Every post and all the voices and thoughts I have listened to carefully.

I hope we will find a good solution and all will be well in the end is all I can say! Until the next time

EthelThePiratesDaughter If all nations agreed they could offer a pause on FOM for a set amount of time if any nation felt they needed it

youlethergo But they could have done all of that behind closed doors, instead of trying to humiliate her and belittle this country