Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

Lose Gibraltar? Oh fuck off you delusional idiot. They're British citizens. Should we just give them northern Ireland, ooh chuck Scotland in as well.

The EU has been hamstrung by the fact that the UK Government has absolutely no idea what it wants from Brexit.
Many of the ideas tossed into the air by the ERG have no basis in reality.

A "No Deal" Brexit would be catastrophic for the UK in the short term
and incredibly damaging in the Long Term

the leading Brexiters like Rees Mogg are just desperate to avoid the EU offshore tax laws that come into effect on April 2nd

they do not care how much damage they will do to the employment rights and prospects of the other 99.9% of the UK population

People who know how deals work have always said it will look like no Deal until the last days. So the fatalistic tone means nothing except that May is offended and knows a bulldog approach soe make her look stronger at the conference.

The real thing that makes no Deal more likely is that May has nothing she can offer that is a really workable solution. Probably nothing that will get through Parliament either.

Her principles won't allow her to go. I suspect she would also see drifting into the EEA as a personal failure and a moral betrayal so won't go for that when a more pragmatic PM would.

She's wrong to expect so much of the EU. It is Britain's problem. The EU don't need a solution as badly and they're distracted. She hasn't treated them with respect because she has a chronic Not Listening problem. At the same time, this was a doomed mission for any politician. It would have taken someone brilliant to really change the narrative today and she isn't that.

Oh bombardier, honestly. This is a Scylla and Charybdis scenario. We have to choose. Like a medical team who give you the options of surgery, surgery plus chemoradiotherapy, or do nothing, but do nothing means you will choke to death within a year. Nobody sane wants surgery or radiotherapy but sometimes they are the least bad options. Grown ups make choices.

Havanananana And you don’t think U.K. people start at 7 or 8 and work till 6, why do people keep trying to knock UK people

OP for someone who voted remain you seem quite keen on the no deal option

You are a hundred per cent wrong on that. I am seriously worried about a no deal scenario. If you read the thread, I have been banging on about how bad it will be the for country!!! It is a concern, it is a bigger concern now than it was at the beginning of this thread.

OP for someone who voted remain you seem quite keen on the no deal option.

Yeah, OP doesn't come across like a remainer at all.

that was one of the reasons lots of people voted leave.

And that's been one of the great May failures - she has never acknowledged that the 48% even existed. Somehow the debate on Brexit has turned into what the majority of LEAVE voters wanted as if 100% of the country voted Leave.

Even on Twitter there are Leavers like Richard North and Oliver Norgrove who want close economic cooperation with the EU but less involvement in the political structures. Are they the ONLY Leave voters who thought like this? Is that likely? So why was it so impossible for May to work towards getting people who voted Remain together with the pragmatic end of the Leave vote so we'd have a majority behind a soft Brexit?

May was not in an easy position obviously and I would have sympathy for her if I genuinely believed she has ever tried to get a sensible outcome. But ruling out ECJ involvement, trying to split EU leaders, her nonsensical outburst about EU leaders trying to influence the election, refusing to listen to expert advice - these were all things she CHOSE to do, things she was told would not work.

People used to laugh at me when I said that May was worse than Thatcher. But Thatcher took ten years before she let her ideology blind her to reality. May has been blind to it from the start.

The UK is actually free to walk away at any point after invoking Art 50 - but it would be pretty stupid to do so unless all the emergency measures were in place.

No, that's not right. Article 50 says that the treaties cease to apply two years after notification, or when a withdrawal agreement is reached, whichever is sooner. So we can't leave with a "no deal" until March.

This isn't North Korea

Why would the UK keep EU citizens if they are not prepared to do the same? It is not inconceivable. Her assurance will be good news to our friends and family that have felt so scared and worried about being forced to leave.

He basically called Farrage a liar. Not sure why that is offensive tbh

Agree - "liar" is almost a compliment when applied to Farage who is not a particularly pleasant or trustworthy person.

Finally managed to load the speech on my computer. That ending was a real fight them bitches moment, incredibly poorly delivered. Just embarrassing.

@Snowymountainsalways where did I say that the Leave vote was irrelevant? That's not what I said at all. I said that if you take the number of people who a) voted b) voted for Brexit c) definitely voted on immigration grounds, these are far from a majority.
So why would this tiny minority of voters have to be pandered to, to the point where we can't have the EEA option?
As a supposed remainer, your stance makes no sense.

I would like to see Merkel fly to London and talk to TM and leave the two grown ups to sort this out.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-birmingham-35886697&ved=2ahUKEwjysJm9oczdAhWkIcAKHZsOBzYQFjACegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw04lOTNQxsUkkGrnshQv3lx&ampcf=1now" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">we have an axe lady except we don't, not that the BBC bothers to tell us

maxthemartian You are not listening Max. You are very extreme. I am not. I am willing to meet in the middle on this. I don't have extreme views that we absolutely have to do anything.

I don't think the EEA will work, because I don't think anyone from the leave side would see it as brexit, and would not accept it. I am listening to them and that is the message coming back. Do you not think that TM and all the teams working on brexit have no already considered this??

EEA ++ may have stood a better chance but they couldn't make it work.

Wrong thread sorry

I would like to see Merkel fly to London and talk to TM and leave the two grown ups to sort this out.

In other words continue the strategy of going over Barnier's head which many commentators think played a big part in the Salzburg disaster?

HPFA I am not sure Barnier is doing a very good job, nothing to say otherwise so far. No progress whatsoever during talks.

@Hesta54

And you don’t think U.K. people start at 7 or 8 and work till 6, why do people keep trying to knock UK people.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. I replied politely to your question asking how EU workers could be going home at 3pm on a Friday.

I have no doubt that some British workers start at 7am or 8am - and that some of these work until 6pm. You rather prove my point - the culture in Britain is to work long hours, but productivity in the EU is far higher Studies have consistently shown that the UK is very inefficient and unproductive when compared with many EU countries such as France and Germany.

I'm not knocking UK people (as in the workers), but under-investment in technology, equipment, systems, work organisation and training (all the responsibility of business owners and managers) is frequently holding back the employees and stopping them from being more productive.

We are not North Korea

You may live to regret that comparison!

May just isn’t strong enough to negotiate a deal. She’s a “Yes” woman who is used to being told what to do and doesn’t have a business or legal background.

FoM is about being able to claim healthcare and out of work benefits, not the 'casual' holiday visit. In much of Europe (all except UK?) you need ID cards/passport and without one, and being registered you can't claim anything. In Belgium you can't rent a flat or buy a house without being registered.
Mrs May was being highly disrespectful by turning up with the Chequers document that was rejected over 2 months ago and demanding that it is the only deal.
How much respect would you give to your child at school if they tried resubmitting homework after you had said it was rubbish 2 months ago?

I don't think the EEA will work, because I don't think anyone from the leave side would see it as brexit, and would not accept it.

Woah there tiger.

No one from the leave side? Not a single one of those 17 million people who voted leave some of whom now regret it would "accept it"?

That's a very bold claim, especially in light of the fact that "the Norway model" and "the Swiss model" were bandied around as viable options before the referendum, so it is probably quite reasonable to assume that some people did in fact think they were voting for that.

And as a PP said, why is "what leave voters are prepared to accept" the only thing that matters, even if they were a homogenous group who all want the same things (which they aren't)? Why do the views of all the millions of remain voters, who were almost as numerous as the leave voters, count for fuck all?

When the vote is practically 50/50 there is a moral imperative to find a compromise, not go for the most extreme version of what a very narrow majority voted for. (And that's without even addressing the issue that the leave campaign repeatedly lied and broke the law.)