Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

Mookatron it is actually a grand gesture, as it is the one trip we all look forward to as we meet up with lots of friends and every year it is great. I can't be sure we can get flights to europe now or that we will be welcome beyond our own friends. I have zero confidence now in this deal process and will need to book further afield for next year.

GhostofFrankGrimes

Your point about the EU being a rules based one is an interesting one. I think a lot of misunderstanding on both sides stems from this. British law, its constitution and its governance stems from a messy and evolving and sometimes flexible set of rules, some of which are written cohesively and some of which aren’t. This has been part of the great success of many British institutions. For example obviously no one would tolerate a royal family if it wielded real power, but that institution thrives because the royals (at least for the most part) follow important protocols that keep them in check.

Anyway the British way of approaching complex issues is not alway compatible with the approach from the EU, the latter requiring rigid adherence to written rules.

Right! So it's not prompted my Macron's insult to our great nation then as you originally suggest. What exactly was it he said again Snowymountainsalways?

Mr Macron's statement will probably play quite well in France. He is not particularly popular but by just making a truthful statement like that, which I bet all the other heads would love to have said can only be a plus.
There is high unemployment in France and Brexit may well be an opportunity if it is handled well.
German and other EU industry is well on the way to make the UK departure almost irrelevant, they are preparing for it.
The UK is about to find out the 'they need us more than we need them' is not true.
As a UK citizen, the UK has already abandoned me so if it wasn't for the fact all my friends and family are in the UK I probably wouldn't care if Britain sinks beneath the waves.

I normally avoid Brexit chat in real life or on-line because both sides are polarized and it is just completely pointless. I think a no-deal sh@t storm brexit will be a complete nightmare all round for everyone in the UK and in the EU in ways we probably don't even understand yet.

you are cutting off your nose to spite your face by cancelling your trip to France. Anyone booking a flight or holiday to France or anywhere else might want to be sure we will still be flying there next year.

wouldn't care if Britain sinks beneath the waves

Thats nice, some real anti British sentiment on here.

The EU doesn’t owe anything to the UK though?
I see it as a marriage: one party is happy, the other says they want a divorce and gets it. The second party then realizes they will have to do what their ex used to donfor them and tries to negotiate that they continue to do their laundry / drive them to work / handle their taxes, and offers to help with what they used to do during the marriage.
Party1 wants a clean break (and maybe is bitter from the divorce) and doesn’t bulge. I wouldn’t say they are BU!

@Snowymountainsalways

I rarely get asked about Brexit when I'm in Europe - which for the last 18 months has been just about every other week.

When I am asked, it is usually along the lines of, 'Why the f**k has the UK voted to leave the EU?' - and depending on the person, I either shrug my shoulders or attempt to explain that in the UK, 35% of the population can decide what everyone else does, be it in general elections, local elections or a Referendum (a concept unknown in most EU countries that have proportional representation). Nobody that I speak to has expressed any concern that the UK is leaving.

My business contacts see Brexit as a great opportunity - for the EU.
Easyjet moving to Vienna, JLR opening a £1 billion factory in Slovakia, EU Agencies moving from London to the EU are the moves that are getting the headlines (in the UK). In the background, hundreds of other small companies are quietly moving out - and are being made very welcome in the EU. A million job losses in the UK means a million new jobs in the EU.

I normally avoid Brexit chat in real life or on-line because both sides are polarized and it is just completely pointless. I think a no-deal sh@t storm brexit will be a complete nightmare all round for everyone in the UK and in the EU in ways we probably don't even understand yet

I do too, I can really understand that. We have tried to avoid that on this thread. Other threads have descended pretty quickly into a s/storm, so we are doing okay 360 posts in.

Let's not forget that the referendum also excluded the votes of two million British citizens living in Europe.

They always made it clear that we couldn't have our cake and eat it. We want all the advantages of membership without adhering to the same rules as the others. Personally, I think it's a con anyway. We were never given the heads up on the complexities of our relationship with the EU and all along we have been told by arch brexiteers that it's all so simple and we can sign all of these wonderful free trade deals overnight. Now we are starting to see the reality, which is that we will only get free trade deals quickly by handing the advantage over to countries like America and putting them firmly in control of what we import and trashing regulations that protect us. That's not 'taking back control'. Totally ill conceived idea that will not make us any better off than we are and could well make us worse off.

I honestly think May and her colleagues have been very unreasonable to assume that many issues 'should' be acceptable to the EU when they have their red lines too.

I suspect you'd think Macron was rude unless he jumped when May said how high.

OP, what are your thoughts on May's failure to deliver a proposal for the Irish border and her admission that no proposal will be ready for October?

Don't you think Macron etc have a right to be angry? This was Britain's idea and we're not even putting forward workable solutions.

Macron might be looking for a distraction following his abysmal unemployment figures, and now the French government are encouraging the French to move to Prague and giving them 750e to relocate. Of course he is looking for a hefty distraction, but did he have to use the delicate Brexit process to do so?

OP

**‘Other threads have descended pretty quickly into a s/storm, so we are doing okay 360 posts in.’

Agreed thank you for keeping the tone on this thread respectful.

The thing is that the situation in NI is utterly changed now to how it was before the peace process. After Brexit nearly the entire population of NI are still potential EU citizens. A huge proportion of whom have already ensured that citizenship. The EU is not going to stand by while a massive enclave of it's population lives in a war zone. They won't let a foreign government ignore and mistreat their citizens. If there is any hint of the 'troubles' (I hate that euphemism for what was in actual fact a guerrilla war and life under military control) returning, the EU will be stepping straight in and the UK will come out very, very badly.

Trancepants that is total BS of the highest order.

The English deserve all the misery they get for Brexit.

Racists and bigots shouldn't be rewarded

I don't expect any president of a civilised nation to band around the word liars. Inflammatory language that only strengthen those wishing to leave. It was poor reflection of his skill and diplomacy.

It's possible that Macron was looking for a distraction but it doesn't distract from the reality that the chequers deal still crosses too many red lines to be acceptable.

Yes the EU will lose when we are not paying our membership fees anymore, of course that is true.

We are probably going to have to pay more than we currently are to trade with each individual country afterwards?

If we go Hard Brexit, I suspect the EU will temporarily offer better conditions to all member states even if it means tightening the belt later, so that no country has to accept a deal with the UK that isn't beneficial. Everyone can take their time and watch us flounder around. Is there actually anything we make/sell that countries can't get from elsewhere? Finance was our strong point, but that may soon no longer be the case.

Ultimately we are probably fucked. We just don't know how hard yet. Whatever happens next Spring, it will be worse than what we have right now. The Scots will be desperate to leave and run back to the EU, and the Irish may not be very happy with us, so we could have several levels of deep shit to wade through. For years.

I hope it's not the case. I can't help dwelling on the worst case scenarios. Like many others I live month to month. I also try to help out family members who have less. I'm sure someone with three properties and a nice fat pension can sit back and assure us it will all be well and that if we end up with ration books it will be like a jolly war-time adventure (seriously, what is the hard-on some leavers have for the idea of rationing?) but my family will probably be dropped into poverty. I'm not looking forward to it, funnily enough...

So you now acknowledge he wasn't calling our country liars, as you asserted several pages ago?

But it's a proven fact

The Electoral Commission has acknowledged that the Leave Campaign broke the law and the ONS complained about the misuse of statistics but by that time the lie was already out there

WeLoveFlowers When all of this is over, we will still need to live side by side however we voted. Some of my closest friends voted to leave and respect their view and reasons for doing so. I don't agree with them, but I won't shout down their view.

A much more intelligent approach is needed, a mediation team as a minimum to take the emotion out, and talk factually would be a start.

I don't think that all brexit voters are racist or xenophobic. What does annoy me is that immigration has been a convenient distraction from the misery of austerity and allowing the narrative that our economic woes are caused by pressure on the system from immigration has given the government a let off.