Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

Brexit is the choice made by the British people, encouraged by those who promised easy solutions. Brexit tells us one thing: it demonstrates that those who wish to convince us that we can easily leave Europe, that all will be well and that [leaving Europe] will bring us lots of money, are liars," he emphasised. "These same people disappeared the morning after [the referendum] in order to not have to deal with all this.

Sounds pretty fucking spot on to me!

Not name calling. Please don't do it again

Don't be ridiculous. Saying 'no one is this stupid' isn't name calling.

LydiaLunch7

I don't believe the leave side will accept it, they will demand another of course. Then it will be three referendums and so on.

This is simply not a valid option, because whatever the result it will not have an authenticity or authority.

I am hopeful we can consider again in ten to twenty years though. The damage to our democracy would be too great to ignore the vote this time around, which is why it has been respected in the houses of parliament. We need to look beyond the referendum.

How about a move from free movement to a minimal visa style movement again (as we used to have in the old days and it worked very well) would this be enough to keep us in?

ils sont des menteurs indeed - like bloody dementors in Harry Potter, sucking the life out of the UK!

Lies were told by both sides of the campaign and I agree with Macron that Leave did to some extent sell it as a quick fix. But this is the nature of politics. Leaving the EU will not solve most of the UKs domestic problems eg housing
The UK thought they would get a special deal if they withdrew what thismeans is all the trade and economic advantages but a hold on free movement. This is impossible as the UK needs freemeovement just as much as the EU does to do business etc
Where the EU are ridiculous though is that they ignore that in the UK 80% of its business is in services not manufacturing for example as it is in Germany. Of course we do need a special deal for this because that is the main component of our economy. A special deal reflecting this is absolutely essential Come on Barnier!

You are insinuating someone is stupid and it is not welcome on this thread, go and join another one if you are looking for a fight SheGotBetteDavisEyes

And strange to say WeLoveFlowers is also a new joiner. With slightly... interesting English (see their post at 11:57:06).

Theresa is that you? We get you felt humiliated and rightly so, have you come to MN as Snowymountainsalways for some sympathy 😂

One thing is for sure. We need to work on our internal issues before we make decisions about our external relationships. Let's hope it's not too late to do that. The damage to our democracy has been done. We can either try to mend it in relative prosperity - in the EU- or cobble it together, assisted by our Eton friends with their offshore millions, when we are fucked.

RollerJed MN is renowned on here for supporting women Jed. Sorry to disappoint you old chap but you won't catch me running her down.

@PerkingFaintly I was plucking up the courage to say the same.

I can’t get behind an organisation that does not listen to our voice. The EU leadership has its own unique agenda.

The EU leadership (or more accurately all Eu member states, to whom the 'leadership answers) has as its agenda only the RULES of being in the EU.

The UK has been using its 'voice' all this time to say we want all the benefits of being in the EU without being in it. We are not following the rules. The rest of the EU telling us when we ask for/demand impossible things is not 'bullying' but just stating the fucking obvious.

You are insinuating someone is stupid and it is not welcome on this thread, go and join another one if you are looking for a fight

Don't be silly. You're not the thread police and I'm patently not 'looking for a fight' .

I am 100% a remainer. However I think the way that the negotiations are going will damage everyone in the EU and the UK in the longer term. The world is facing so many huge challenges and I think that a painful EU divorce will lead to even more problems for us all. My brother lives in Poland and is a citizen and is really worried about how right-wing it has become (they refused to accept any of the Syrian refugees unless they were Christian) and have limited judicial independence. My nanny is Turkish and was planning to return and set up a business but has cancelled those plans as Turkey is becoming a lot fundamentalist and she is worried for her family. Brexit is awful in so many ways. Both the remain and leave campaigns were terrible and the process should have lasted a couple of years and there should have been much more planning about what a post-EU Uk would be. I think if there is a no-deal brexit then I imagine that the UK will be come a low tax haven with much bad feeling between UK and the EU. I am sure that in the longer term it would probably work ok and most probably well but for me I would prefer to stay in the EU as I think for all of us (including the EU)the world would be a better place.

There are quite a few young people I know with negative views on the EU however much they like Europe.

Ime they work alongside people from all over Europe and realise life in mainland eu is bad for youth unemployment. Young outsiders are not able to go to say Germany to pick up work as easily as others come here. Then there is the huge housing demand.

Outside of the Erasmus bubble there are other young British people seeing the economic issues first hand.

I guess we all know different types.

they could vote to leave only with a certain deal in place, to avoid a no-deal brexit.

Surely this can't be a realistic option, any more than demanding the public vote on any deal?

How many times can all the time and effort and days of work be put into creating a deal, and then all the time, money, days of work to set up a vote, hold it, count it, get back a result?

As this does nothing more than agree the deal to be put to the EU - which the EU are very likely to refuse/want to adapt and negotiate on - all that does is create the need for another vote, and count before returning to the table.

This requires endless resources of money, time and manpower, and could realistically take years to get to the point of a deal the UK public agree on and that the EU then agree to.

And the EU are supposed to just wait patiently through all this?

SheGotBetteDavis

Ok being honest here- I don’t know what the solution is on that one. I don’t think we can have a ‘tail wagging the dog situation’ where we must stay in the EU because of the NI border. I struggle to believe a solution can’t be found, using non-intrusive border technologies. But I don’t have a simple solution to offer.

Mookatron Eton friends? I am not sure how many Eton friends you have but I have heard they are good at chess.
We haven't time to work on any issues, that is the point. We have reached the departure gate so to speak and now we are just choosing the destination. No one can agree the destination but we are all hoping the weather will be nice and the company cordial when we get there.

Macron, though perhaps unwise to say what he did, is telling the truth remain or leave, we were all lied too and the lairs buggered off, even Farage walked away! keeping his MEP EU pension of course.

Leaving the Worlds richest trading block with no plan, no deal, no nothing is total madness.
A no-deal Brexit is a great opportunity for the EU to attract multi national companies to the mainland from the UK, 100s of 1000s of highly paid jobs lost.

Plus.... can our NHS really survive the loss of all these EU workers? i might be pissed off if i can't get cheap strawberries but i'll be dead if i can't get quick and reliable healthcare.

The entire thing is an embarrassing shit show.
There are no plans or answers to anything & we are out in 6 months time.
I'm Scottish, I am more European than British, Scotland & N Ireland voted to remain & are completely disregarded, it's all about England, as always.
My partner & kids don't have uk passports, will they be allowed to stay & work here, use the NHS, go to Uni for free? Who knows, there are no answers.
What about my UK passport, can I travel on it after March, will I have to go through separate passport checks from my family, will I need a visa. Where are the answers?

What Macron said is absolutely spot on - the fact that so many Brexit supporters can’t see this reminds me of the Emperor’s New Clothes. None of those who led us into this mess and trumpeted how marvellous it would be have got the least idea how to make it work and the longer the situation drags on the more apparent this becomes - that’s why Theresa May, a remain supporter, has been left holding the baby. I’m starting to think it was her plan all along to expose the Brexit lie for what it is. We need more people like Macron to stand up and shout “The Emperor has no clothes” - it’s too much to hope that Corbyn will ever get off the fence. Don’t feel sorry for Theresa May I’m no supporter, but I’m hoping she may yet be the one to save the country - it’s our only hope.

"Brexit is the choice made by the British people, encouraged by those who promised easy solutions. Brexit tells us one thing: it demonstrates that those who wish to convince us that we can easily leave Europe, that all will be well and that [leaving Europe] will bring us lots of money, are liars," he emphasised. "These same people disappeared the morning after [the referendum] in order to not have to deal with all this."

This? This is what he said? And OP you have extrapolated that into "I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister."

OP, you should have been a part of the Leave campaign, you're just as capable of selling lies. SheGotBetteDavis didn't say you're stupid, but I sure as hell am calling you a liar.

What was the wrong thing he did?
Why should Macron defend Britain's interests?
I remember once there was an article where it said May went to Merkel in the initial negotiations and asked her to "make Brexit work".
Why? Any rational reason why Macron, Merkel etc. should have a vested interest in making Brexit great for Britain? And Varadkar, for that matter?

I struggle to believe a solution can’t be found, using non-intrusive border technologies.

Which don't exist. And I don't know about you, but I don't much fancy the UK's chances of suddenly inventing some.

By the by, I think it's pretty offensive to talk about Ireland and the border issue as a ‘tail wagging the dog situation’. We're talking here about a serious international treaty that people depend on and which works due to lots of very delicate but robust work and compromise on all sides.

WeLoveFlowers - it surely goes without saying that if the NI border solution was straightforward then someone would have put it forward. It's not about the technology, it is about the agreements in place for the technology to police that is the issue.