Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

I am worried we lose the second ref, then what?

BetteDavis

I also believe Brexit can be very positive in the medium or long term. Without having a glass ball, I think the UK can have a very bright economic future outside of Europe- don’t forget trade with the EU is responsible for just 12-15 % of our economy and there is a whole world out there. I also say that appreciating no one really knows what the long term financial future looks like. I don’t pretend to be any expert and I don’t think there is a clear answer. I also don’t want to be callous and pretend the short term will be easy- my pessimism is aimed at the shorter term. I do see a bright future ahead (I have kids too).

Yes I expect you are worried you lose the referendum, OP.

YABU and you sound really childish. You cancelled your holiday? Are you serious? You cancelled your holiday because Macron said that Brexiteers lied? I thought that was established fact?
I live in France. Do you want to know how much we care about Brexit here and how much we are talking about it? Virtually not at all. Nobody talks about it, it barely makes the news. I'm sure we'll talk about it a little more when there is something to discuss, but right now, it's a non-event, nobody cares outside political circles.

I’m a remainder. I voted remain. If they vote again I will vote leave on democratic principles alone.

That is one of the most stupid things I've heard in a long time.

I am not convinced loads of leavers have in any way changed their minds. If anything they have become more fixed in their views.

No one can answer what happens if we lose the second ref. I think it is a very important question.

We can't just ignore the vote

Well, we can actually, Or 'they' can. As in the government. It's not a legally binding result.

And no, it doesn't mean that we change our minds about the results of GE and so on, and that it sets some precedent for routinely ignoring the will of the people (God, that phrase); this is a dangerous period in the UK's economy; the voting public were lied to, the result is catastrophic, and yes, we need a leader who falls on their sword to stop Brexit.

I'm looking at you, TM.

LOL @ Mookatron! Good call.

They know we can't reverse what has happened, the EU would have come out of this looking stronger if they had held out the hand of friendship (knowing so many of us support them and want to stay) and not humiliated our PM in such a way.

OP, you are waffling now. What does a 'hand of friendship' mean? Do you want them to back down on their position? Why should they?

I’m a remainder. I voted remain. If they vote again I will vote leave on democratic principles alone

I literally don't even believe this. No one is this stupid.

Scatteredthoughtss I don't like bullying men. I can't stand Macron. I am a hundred per cent fan of Merkel. The little boys locker room stuff I despise.

@Juells

Indeed. How anyone thinks it's good negotiating tactics to tell your partner you will break the agreement as soon as you can is beyond me....

And no, it doesn't mean that we change our minds about the results of GE and so on, and that it sets some precedent for routinely ignoring the will of the people (God, that phrase); this is a dangerous period in the UK's economy; the voting public were lied to, the result is catastrophic, and yes, we need a leader who falls on their sword to stop Brexit.

I agree. I have said from the outset that I don't think there will be any kind of Brexit.

trade with the EU is responsible for just 12-15 % of our economy

EU exports are 44% of the UK's total exports, nearly half. They are also 53% of our imports, more than half, which we would need to source from elsewhere.

OP, are you preparing an article for the ‘Daily pearl-clutching Mail’? I don’t think the French tourist board is going to lose sleep over your boycott.

I am not convinced loads of leavers have in any way changed their minds. If anything they have become more fixed in their views.

No one can answer what happens if we lose the second ref. I think it is a very important question.

How are so many people still so uninformed?? And making threads about it when they seemingly don't pay any attention to the flood of news on all this stuff?

The second ref. would offer more than two options. Nobody would expect millions of leavers to suddenly vote remain (although some might), but they could vote to leave only with a certain deal in place, to avoid a no-deal brexit.

I don't like bullying men

You STILL haven't actually read what he said, have you?

I am not convinced loads of leavers have in any way changed their minds. If anything they have become more fixed in their views.
Indeed,
but lots of leavers have died since 2016
and LOTS of remainers have turned 18

teenagers - who are predominantly remain - are very, very angry about the 2016 vote ..... if they vote in the numbers they did then, the result will be to stay in the EU

the old white rich men are petrified of that outcome

WeLoveFlowers Okay, I hear that. But what about Ireland and Northern Ireland? The border and the implications for the long, long and bloody journey to resolution there? You sound like someone who would have thought about that as well...I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

I am not convinced loads of leavers have in any way changed their minds.

It's not just people changing their minds, it's also new voters turning 18, and older voters passing away. The current estimate is that the vote will have switched to remain by January on the basis of demographics alone, without anyone changing their minds.

« Le Brexit est le choix qu’ont fait les Britanniques, poussés par ceux qui promettaient des solutions faciles. Le Brexit nous dit une chose : il démontre que ceux qui veulent nous convaincre qu’on peut facilement se passer de l’Europe, que tout ira très bien et que cela leur rapportera beaucoup d’argent sont des menteurs », a-t-il martelé. « Ces mêmes personnes ont disparu le lendemain [du référendum] pour ne pas avoir à gérer tout cela. »

"Brexit is the choice made by the British people, encouraged by those who promised easy solutions. Brexit tells us one thing: it demonstrates that those who wish to convince us that we can easily leave Europe, that all will be well and that [leaving Europe] will bring us lots of money, are liars," he emphasised. "These same people disappeared the morning after [the referendum] in order to not have to deal with all this."

I live in France. Do you want to know how much we care about Brexit here and how much we are talking about it? Virtually not at all. Nobody talks about it, it barely makes the news. I'm sure we'll talk about it a little more when there is something to discuss, but right now, it's a non-event, nobody cares outside political circles.

Exactly, people in the EU countries in the rest of Europe, if they do talk about it, think we have taken leave of our senses. The British has a reputation for pragmatism and they just cannot understand it.

Voting to make yourself poorer and reduce opportunities for your own DCs is stupid.

Anyone who thinks leaving the EU is in Ireland's interest is barmy.

There was a cringeworthingly bad interview by a Tory Brexiteer on Irish radio a few days ago where the interviewer put simple straightforward questions and scenarios to him, e.g. how will I be affected under your plan if I live in Dundalk and work in Newry? Will I be allowed to drive my taxi from Donegal to Derry? He either went completely silent or blustered and tied himself up in knots. Not sure if I can link here but it was Andrew Bridgen on RTE's Morning Ireland. Worth a listen if you fancy a good laugh.