Macron's behaviour is despicable

[Snowymountainsalways]

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. I am not a remainer who think a second ref will help. A second ref won't help regardless of the outcome, because the other side will simply demand another one, and another and so it would go on indefinitely and it is utterly futile and pointless.

I had come to the conclusion that a good deal would be the best outcome in the end. However I am just appalled at the behaviour and language coming out of the EU, and particularly Macron.

I am now even thinking what is the point? What is the point in continuing with any 'deal'? They are clearly not remotely interested.

May (for all her faults, and she has many) should gather her dignity and call it a day. We were there in good faith, the chequers plan is not perfect but it was a starting point. I had hoped it would work. It would have offered a solution of sorts.

I have cancelled our holiday next year to France. I don't want to go anywhere so openly hostile, despite the fact we have been holidaying there for my entire living life. I can't support Macron's comments that were both needlessly humiliating and rude to our prime minister.

Thoughts?

WeLoveFlowers Everyone is entitled to their view on this thread, you won't be lambasted by me.

This is what Macron said:

*Brexit is the choice of the British people. It’s a decision that was pushed by people who believed in an easy solution.

With Brexit, and I say it with the utmost respect for the British people, we have demonstrated that those who said they could do easily without Europe, that everything is going to be alright, are liars.

It’s also true they left the day after the vote so they didn’t have to manage it. *

He's just being honest, I agree with every word of it. Gove, Johnson, etc. said everything was going to be easy, and dismissed any potential difficulties as "project fear". We are still being lied to. I'm glad someone (Macron) is being honest.

OP you are no way a remainer. You are also coming across a little bit daft, why are you continuing to blame the EU when the UK voted out. It's entirely on the UKs head this total shit storm.

Stop blaming others and look at your fellow citizens who voted out without a fucking clue or plan on what that would look like.

May deserved to be humiliated. She's a poor example of a PM and I'm embarrassed every time I see her trying to play at being a PM.

who knows what will happen to a border? I guess that will be for the EU to sort out, as there is no one in the UK that would ever put a border between NI and RoI. I hope the EU are giving it some thought.

Oh come on... and you claim to be a Remainer. Don't believe you, sorry.

@RollerJed snap!

*This is what's so bloody awful. The PM has a mandate to destroy the country's economy and she's doggedly trying to DELIVER it.

It's astonishing.*

Well is it? - because we had a vote and the vote said leave. If you don't then try to deliver that, then you're being undemocratic and elitist and overriding the will of the people, blah blah blah.

This is why modern civilised "democracies" don't actually run every decision by public vote and govern by referenda. Because it causes an unholy mess when people vote for something very important that they're not properly informed about (or worse, lied to about as in this case) and don't understand the ultimate consequences of.

Even saying that will have me blasted for making out that the British people are thick, but it's true - people didn't understand the thing they were voting on. Most people, myself included, don't understand all the detail of how the EU works and the economics of it, and how and why we need immigration in the way we do, and how being in the EU is good for Britain in a lot of vital ways, and how leaving raises intractable issues like the Ireland Border that are a bastard to solve.

Once you have a referendum and you make a disastrous decision, it's in the nature of it that it's very hard to say "ah no you don't actually want that".

I don’t feel sorry for May.

She triggered article 50 without a plan. She decided on the deadline to trigger it. She could have said when the Brexiters come up with a good, well costed plan that solves things like whether we stay in or out of customs union, single market, Irish border and how we will transition (i.e. how many more civil servants would we need to replace all EU functions,) and would likely be accepted by RU and is accepted by our parliament, then and only then would she trigger article 50 and start negotiations with EU. 2 years to negotiate isn’t much time and they’ve wasted that trying to come up with a plan which they have spectacularly failed at.

No sympathy for May here from me. She wanted to look strong and decisive , but she massively messed up by not having any substance behind her actions. He goal was to stay as PM, not to deliver what was right for our country.

This is all well good people, but where is the solution?

We can't just ignore the vote, the deal is dead in the water, the leadership contest is in view, as a woman I can not not flame May I don't believe any man anywhere could have done a better job. Hard brexit is becoming a possibility.

I want to know what you would do to fix it.

maxthemartian it's very obvious isn't it 🙄

Sure OP, you voted remain but those EU bullies picking on poor old the UK just trying to get its sovereignty back...

who knows what will happen to a border? I guess that will be for the EU to sort out, as there is no one in the UK that would ever put a border between NI and RoI. I hope the EU are giving it some thought.

Ummm, yes I think they have given it just a few moments reflection and they don't think there is a workable solution to date!!!!!!! It's a massive, massive problem that the UK has caused.

OP joined (very prolifically) yesterday. Just saying.

There isn't a solution, that's why we're almost at the end of the road and about to fall off a cliff.

The options are: a) Flush Britain even further down the toilet and b) have a rethink and back away.

WeLoveFlowers Thanks for your thoughts - I won't be lambasting you either. But for a Brexiteer, even you don't seem to think Brexit is good for the country, and your reasons for voting as you did are much more about long term disillusionment with the EU, rather than actively thinking Brexit is a positive thing.

What really makes me incredibly sad is that it's not the voting generation that will suffer the most - its our own children and grandchildren. That's really, really hard to swallow.

I am a moderate remainer, I say that because I do feel we should respect the vote. Nah, don't believe you.

Lol at people saying we should just say "fuck you" and leave with no deal because the EU leaders weren't nice to us. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Macron basically said the leave campaign was based on lies. Which it was. That's a fact.

Not RTFT but anyone who hasn't worked out the ref was run illegally has been living under a rock. Anyone who thinks that was democracy and it should be respected in the face of so much damage to the country's future...

Love Macron...a good solid centrist who doesn't stand for gammonny bullshit

I think what May actually wants is to do right by the UK and her party, and go down in history as the PM who managed to do the impossible and steer the country through this nightmare.

She must be realising it's now not going to happen.

Has anyone suggested yet, that a neat solution around the Irish border question would be for Eire to leave the EU too? It would be good timing for them to leave now as they could get out before they turn from net recipients into net contributors to the EU budget and they wouldn't lose their largest export market after the USA (ie the UK).

(yes, I know they don't see it like this ... yet!!)

I can't get my head round the idea of a second referendum. So if I vote X, but Y win (by no matter how small a margin), then Y win. If I kick up so much fuss that there is another referendum, and then X win, surely Y supporters will also kick up a fuss and then ... another referendum, and so on? Where does it end? Would it also apply to general elections?

@Snowymountainsalways

Great! Very happy for you to go somewhere else on holidays or stay in your independant and rainny country. I wont miss you and all the people who voted Brexit.

I am French and my husband and children have an english passport. We have worked hard for more than 2 decades to build a life here. Paid all our taxes and never ever have benefits from the state including NHS as we have a private insurance.

The vote felt like a slap in the face.

You dont like what Macron says? Tough.

You are very uninformed if you rather choose politicians who build a campaign for their benefits based on lies and false facts and have since vanished to not have to deal with the aftermath.

We are gone now and have brilliantly managed our own brexit from the UK. I am looking forward to the entertainement that next March will be.

I frankly do not understand the ‘bullying’ claims. The UK wants to leave the club as it doesn’t like the rules. Fine. It then says it wants all the benefits of the club, and not to obey the rules. The EU says no. The UK screams ‘bullying’??????

And on a more serious note, as a NI person, I am totally happy with the EU’s proposals on the border. Regulatory checks at ports are sensible and a lot better than reinstating a hard border. This will not make NI any less British! It is a sensible solution and frankly would have been adopted long ago if May had not signed a coalition with the DUP. Abortion laws differ. Animal checks differ between GB and NI. There is nothing new here and not worthy of her strop.

So the EU has come up with a reasonable solution. But instead May’s proposals (with DUP backing) would re-partition Ireland. She has refused to engage on the issue and the EU have been amazing in defending small member states. She reportedly told Merkel that the UK was an important country and Ireland was an unimportant one - that says everything about her attitude. If she had engaged in proper discussions earlier, some progress could have been reached.

Bloobs astonishing is the wrong word... I meant it as in a sense of the bizarre that we're in this hole.

I agree with you anyway.

Such a crucial, complex issue should NEVER have been the subject of referendum.

You cancelled a holiday in a beautiful country with many lovely people because of Macron?? That's absurd.

[Misses point of thread]

my multiple attempts at compromise

The EU has been clear from the start that it would not alter its fundamental rules. The UK has ignored that.

And how anyone can think the UK govt has acted in good faith when David Davis immediately reneged on the agreements made in December, Michael Gove has said that any agreement reached can be overthrown at any time and Liam Fox is planning to undermine EU food standards...well....

I don't actually know where democracy goes from here. How can you have rational discussion and disagreement when people can look reality in the face and simply deny it exists?