To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

ithink
Equality absolutely implies that both sexes are equally important. No one is advocating the neglect of boys (I have one btw). But yet again, there are hard facts showing that women still don't enjoy a level playing field. Addressing that should still be a priority.
As for 'toxic' masculinity, this term is only used in cases where men in a position of power have behaved like disgusting bullies. Surely no role model for my son! It's important to educate boys on what being a 'strong ' man actually means: respect of others, mental resilience, honesty etc. Values important for both men and women. Making decent adults out of them. Being a man does not mean being an abusive bastard. THAT'S what 'toxic' means.

The point of men not being anonymous (apart from the fact that accused people usually aren’t) is that other victims often come forward once one woman has been brave enough to make the accusation. Which makes a conviction more likely.

Addressing the other part of your post @Bertrand

I agree and I see the dilemma what is what I was trying to say in my other post.

I can see why allegations are kept on the DBS. I believe it was because it was found that before Ian Huntley committed murder he had been accused of things before but not convicted of anything. However had those allegations been known he probably would never have been working in a school. It was decided then to show allegations on a DBS in some cases so that the whole picture would be known.

I also get why we keep the names of women alleging rape secret, even if there is no conviction. Obviously the thought of your name being made public if the man is found not guilty would deter most women from reporting rape in the first place.

So how do we protect men from false allegations? Doesn't have to be rape or sexual assault. Could be a violent crime. Even a financial crime.

Because some men are utter utter shits, who do despicable things all men should pay the price?

That's an interesting point because it's actually the logic that is used a lot against women. Some women lie about being raped (which is true, some women do lie), therefore how can we believe any woman?

I don't have the answer to how to balance the two though.

I want them to be taught to stand up for themselves in a Male dominated environment

your making your own point FOR women only spaces right there! Why should WOMEN have to 'stand up for themselves' in spaces shared with men? Why does women have to adapt and change their behaviour to fit in with men? Why do men create such toxic environments women need to learn to exist in them?

“So how do we protect men from false allegations? Doesn't have to be rape or sexual assault. Could be a violent crime. Even a financial crime.”

Same way we always have. Innocent til proven guilty. And due process.

There is still the Garrick Club and the Freemasons where women are not allowed to be members.
There are still religious institutions in the UK where women can't apply or get jobs.
We all experience the school system where most of the workforce are women then look at the top 10 jobs, and it's mainly male faces.
Many other countries women are barely allowed to drive let alone ride bikes.

I do see what you mean that in this case yes the women do have a tiny little advantage over the men but I think they are just trying to get something started for women ,look at the bigger picture and think of all the male biker gangs-Satan's Slaves etc it's mainly a boys club.
You may disagree with their approach but don't be so quick to join the opposing side, we don't get many breaks.

But single sex spaces are being created in spaces that are traditionally male only or where women tend to be considered accessories/girlfriends. Such as bikers clubs.
Or to open activities to cultural groups where women have been prevented from joining mixed groups.

But why?

Anytime someone on here mentions how men are being treated unfairly the answer is a resounding "well what are other men doing about it". Or when the OP said that a men only cycle group wasn't allowed "well tell the men to organise one".

Ok then.

If you want a women only group - motorcycle or anything else - where women aren't just girlfriends or accessories - set one up.

Set up your own women only motorcycle club.

Why go into a men's club and demand that they set up a women only group?

So how do we protect men from false allegations? Doesn't have to be rape or sexual assault. Could be a violent crime. Even a financial crime.

Well I would say how do we protect anyone from false allegations? Not sure how can ensure that. So I think one issue would be how to ensure that cases that go forward to prosecution are supported by reasonable evidence. The other issue is how as a society we treat people who've been falsely accused, as attitudes towards the falsely accused or those accused, prior to actual prosecution and conviction, can be quite prejudiced...all that 'no smoke without fire' bollocks. From your example the problems for the man you mentioned seemed not just to stem from the false allegation but prejudice towards him afterwards by those who found out about it.

man who has it all

Because some men are utter utter shits, who do despicable things all men should pay the price?

Safeguarding policies in organisations work on the basis that everyone is subject to restrictions, it's the price everyone has to pay to keep others safe from the few that will cause problems.

I used to used to use car services with male drivers, until one of them assaulted me, not serious but bloody unsettling. I now prefer not to get into a car alone with a man I don't know. That doesn't mean I think all drivers are dodgy but I also can't tell until something happens which ones are - despite the stereotypes the dodgy guys look the same as the safe ones = so I prefer not to take the risk. It's not the same as assuming all men are evil.

Why go into a men's club and demand that they set up a women only group?

Because surely the underlying reasoning is that it's good if groups can be open to everyone.And special interest groups need members to thrive.
But in groups that have been/ are traditionally all male it can be intimidating for women to join in.Hence all female groups to draw in a part of the population who traditionally haven't been involved in your hobby.
Same for knitting groups - I imagine some men who'd enjoy that would be intimidated by an all female group,why not have an all men subgroup.
With the aim that the main group will be mixed.
Sorted.
(But I do feel that if men only groups exist in traditionally male hobbies/ interests groups what may happen is that the male group just becomes "the group".Which is how it's been in the past - examples to show this doesn't happen would be welcome !)

Same way we always have. Innocent til proven guilty. And due process.

Not always though.

The case that I have referred to opened my eyes.

This case never went to court. It was dropped due to lack of evidence to support the allegation and actually evidence that proved that the allegation was untrue.

The accused never had his day in court whereby he could clear his name.

It is merely the fact that an allegation was made that now sits on his DBS.

He won't get public sympathy, due process etc. In some ways that is good because his name is not out in the public eye yet in others he can never defend himself.

A prospective employer asks for a DBS and depending on the job applied for that allegation may or may not be disclosed. That may then be the end of that job offer.

As I said this could be any type of allegation. A financial one could barr you from some jobs. Doesn't have to be sexual or violent.

PPs have talked about the small number of men falsely accused but how many men are in this position? Are figures even kept? The number of allegations not prosecuted but recorded by DVS?

And - to continue- if you are a woman interested in traditionally male pursuits you might be pushed to find enough women initially to start an all women group,and might actually want to mix with the men in your hobby as well,but perhaps with a bit of support - again,initially?

Why go into a men's club and demand that they set up a women only group?

I wasn't aware that the club the OP referred to was men's only.

Your questions bear no relation to what you quoted from my post.

Not always though.
Nothing is always.
You could find exceptions to anything. They just confirm the rule

Arthuritis, what do you think the solution to this is? Because you yourself mentioned Ian Brady as an example.Accusations are kept on record because even if the original accusation is not substantiated repeated accusations suggest something else may be going on.
But ,no that isn't fair for a n innocent person.So what do you do?

Conversely, women have also been accused of sexual crimes. And are used as evidence that women are just as bad as men...

I am doing my best but I don’t know all the answers that is why I posted to get different views to give me the answers

If you're serious these books may help:

Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates

The war on women by Sue Lloyd-Roberts

Eve was framed by Helena Kennedy follow-up Eve was shamed out soon.

Everywoman by Jess Philips.

As well as help you consider the additional pressures faced by women with disabilities, women of colour, working-class women, women on low incomes, lesbians and so on...

And - to continue- if you are a woman interested in traditionally male pursuits you might be pushed to find enough women initially to start an all women group,and might actually want to mix with the men in your hobby as well,but perhaps with a bit of support - again,initially?

And to paraphrase what other posters have said - why is that down to the men to fix?

If women want their own club, of any sort, great. Set one up. If enough women want to do it then they will join.

Why is it up to the men in a club to set up a women only subset in order to encourage women to join?

Used to be that Brownies and Guides were for girls and cubs and scouts for boys. Then girls were allowed to join scouts but boys aren't allowed to join the guides to keep a safe, single sex space for girls.

So where do boys go who want a single sex space?

Can't see any justification here for girls joining scouts. Women cannot have it all ways without expecting a backlash.

And then that will just make it worse for everyone.

In some areas women do need positive discrimination in order to achieve an equal footing. But in others like the setting up of clubs? No.

Are women saying that they can't set up a club as well as the men? I hope not. So what other barrier is there for why women can't set up their own whatever? Why do they need to go in and change what the men have?

But I, and thank God, know no one who has been raped.

How on earth do you know that? The reality is, you probably do know someone who has been raped.

I do worry about some men, about the high rate of suicide particular amongst young men and war veterans.

However. That is nothing to do with Women’s Rights, as with most major problems in society it is heavily linked to toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity is poisonous, and it affects every aspect of life. That is what we should be focusing on breaking down and removing, NOT women’s rights. Women’s rights have been eroded for far too long, by toxic masculinity, and they are needed.

The examples you give OP, as as a result of women being oppressed by men for so long. Can you see that?

Used to be that Brownies and Guides were for girls and cubs and scouts for boys. Then girls were allowed to join scouts but boys aren't allowed to join the guides to keep a safe, single sex space for girls.

I believe that the reason that Scouts opened up to girls was because numbers were down, rather than anything to do with 'equality'.

And quite right that Guides should be kept as a safe, single sex space for girls.

Why is it up to the men in a club to set up a women only subset in order to encourage women to join?

They're not. The women are doing it themselves.

why is that down to the men to fix?

Nobody said it is.
No man ever has fixed problems of equality for women. We've been having to fight it for ever.

It's women who've set up women only groups or clubs.

I really don't see where you're getting at. Do you live in lala land?