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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

999 replies

crazydoglady6867 · 16/09/2018 08:05

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

OP posts:
crazydoglady6867 · 16/09/2018 10:13

bertrand
That is what all our girls will be doing, surely.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 16/09/2018 10:13

“Because what now follows him around is the fact that he was accused of something. Many people I'm sure take the view of "no smoke without fire".
It's obvious from your tone that you think he actually did it as it is from @BertrandRussell post.”

No I don’t think that. I do think a lot is made of the “it ruins men’s lives” though, when the effect on wonen’s lives of actual rapists walking free is much more severe and frequent. Could you address the rest of my post, by the way?

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 10:14

On any given thread vaguely related to this subject several people pop up to say they know a man who’s life has been ruined by false rape allegations. I’ve seen it so many times on here that I don’t believe it anymore. If it happened with the frequency it’s reported on mn everyone would know a man who has been falsely accused of rape and it’s ruined his life.

But I, and thank God, know no one who has been raped. I absolutely believe anyone who says that they have been though.

Me having no experience of something doesn't mean it doesn't happen though does it?

This is the attitude that some of us on here are talking about.

Can you imagine if a man came on here and said "I keep hearing about women being raped but it hasn't happened to anyone that I know so I'm starting to not believe that it ever happens". In no way would that ever be acceptable or tolerated yet it's fine dor a woman to say I don't believe men are falsely accused?

BertrandRussell · 16/09/2018 10:15

“ertrand
That is what all our girls will be doing, surely.”

Really? a) worked well so far, hasn’t it? b) why is it up to girls?

C8H10N4O2 · 16/09/2018 10:15

No I don’t think that. I do think a lot is made of the “it ruins men’s lives” though, when the effect on wonen’s lives of actual rapists walking free is much more severe and frequent.

^This. I have children of both sexes, I see no reason to put in place a policy which effectively says "women lie".

treaclesoda · 16/09/2018 10:15

Many people I'm sure take the view of "no smoke without fire".

I actually think there is huge public sympathy for men who are accused of sexual offences against adult women. Even when they are found guilty in court there is still huge public sympathy with much talk of false accusations, misunderstandings, women agreeing to sex at the time and then 'crying rape' the next morning because they are embarrassed etc.

The only sort of rapists who are mostly condemned are those who wait in a dark alley with a knife and rope. And even then, a significant number of people will say 'well, I'm not saying it's her fault, but she should have known better than to walk there on her own'.

Dottierichardson · 16/09/2018 10:15

C8H10N4O2 Good question, I've found groups like that really helpful, like a lot of women worked in industries/professions where loads of women at lower levels, but suddenly barely visible when it got to upper management.

C8H10N4O2 · 16/09/2018 10:15

Many people I'm sure take the view of "no smoke without fire".

Yes, that will be why even when they admit a long series of crimes they can be back on stage making jokes about it within a few months.

BertrandRussell · 16/09/2018 10:16

I do believe some men are falsely accused. It must be shit for them

crazydoglady6867 · 16/09/2018 10:17

bertrand
Because we want the change

OP posts:
Lweji · 16/09/2018 10:18

if, from this day forward we teach our girls from babies that they are equal and can stand up to a boy when he is being intimidating

LOL
Have you tried doing it in real life.
I've done Krav Maga as well and the only way I could beat (hell, stay in a fight with) most men was by keeping a safe distance from them.

Also, I'd have wished you luck with my exH.

ButchyRestingFace · 16/09/2018 10:18

Yes, that will be why even when they admit a long series of crimes they can be back on stage making jokes about it within a few months.

Or when they're filmed talking about how they'd go about sexually assault someone, they can still become POTUS a nanosecond later! #winning

itinkthereforeima · 16/09/2018 10:19

I haven't read all the thread, but I'd like to say I agree that this is a worrying trend.

It is not a good thing to be called "toxic" all your life. It doesn't help you improve yourself. There's this bizarre idea about something called "toxic masculinity". Yet somehow feminity is never called toxic. The world needs a balance of masculinity and femininity. These are each good things, to be celebrated. Women should be allowed celebrate their femininity, but so should men be allowed celebrate their masculinity. Everyone has equal capacity to be "toxic" and we should be judging people on an individual basis with regards to toxic behaviour.

And then this obsession with putting women and girls in almost every advert now. It's become a parody of itself, companies pretending to try inspire girls when at the end of the day they're just trying to sell stuff. And then the cringey movie remakes where women are plonked into male roles just to try push men out of the picture.

Meanwhile, nobody cares about boys. Boys are doing worse in school than girls. Fewer boys are going to university. Boys' role models are being pushed aside in favour of women, or are being called "toxic" or "privileged" etc. so as to dismiss their strengths and their hard work. Boys are assumed to have privilege and are therefore given less encouragement, when in fact if you've ever worked with boys in an educational setting you'll notice they typically tend to need more discipline and help with focusing on their work than girls do, not less.

How are we improving the world by shoving men aside? Men should have the same rights to segregated gender groups as women do, and sports teams shouldn't be forced to mix genders, given men are typically physically stronger and larger than women.

And really, what incentive have boys got to grow up to become well-behaved, hard-working men, if they're going to get called "toxic" just for being born male, and called "privileged" no matter their background or how much hard work they do? Why are people surprised at the emergence of MGTOW and men's rights activists given how horrible people are encouraged to be towards men?

But worst of all is the suicide rate. And yet when you mention that, some bright spark comes out with "but women attempt it more!" So what? They survive it more! Men are DYING from it! They literally makes it more serious an issue for men, yet it's brushed aside all the time.

Everyone deserves space to be themselves. Everyone deserves encouragement and praise as they try to progress through life. Everyone deserves the same opportunities, and to be valued for who they are individually and what they can contribute regardless of what genitals they have or don't have. If you call it "equality" when you're just trying to shove men aside and replace them with women just because, you're a hypocrite, and you're just trying to seek revenge for historic sexism, which won't do society any favours. It is dangerous to assume that "men will be fine". You are not for equality of you don't care equally about men. This tit-for-tat approach is not working, is not mature and reasonable, and is going to result in a backlash.

Quietrebel · 16/09/2018 10:19

I think the issue with single sex spaces becoming popular is that it could create an expectation that the sexes don't mix and thus normalise segregation. That would be a set back.

BertrandRussell · 16/09/2018 10:20

Ah right. So men think it’s OK that women feel intimidated, that 2 women a fortnight are murdered by their partners, that 90% of violent crime is committed by men, and if women want that to change it’s up to them to make the change happen.

And you say feminists hate men!

Lweji · 16/09/2018 10:20

I do believe some men are falsely accused. It must be shit for them

Agree.
But still a drop in the ocean of those who get away with it and compared to the number of women who are raped and never say anything.

Dottierichardson · 16/09/2018 10:21

Because we want the change And part of that is working with other women, giving each other support, space, a break from dealing with exhausting, sexist arseholes and so on...

DontBoreMe · 16/09/2018 10:21

I was going to reply but then realised it'd break my Rule #1 When On MN -

"Don't engage with stupid people, you'll only validate them in their tiny minds"

BertrandRussell · 16/09/2018 10:22

“But worst of all is the suicide rate. And yet when you mention that, some bright spark comes out with "but women attempt it more!" So what? They survive it more! Men are DYING from it! They literally makes it more serious an issue for men, yet it's brushed aside all the time.”

I don’t think it is being brushed aside. What, though, are men doing about it?

IfyouseeRitaMoreno · 16/09/2018 10:22

if, from this day forward we teach our girls from babies that they are equal and can stand up to a boy when he is being intimidating

But they’re not equal are they? The mere knowledge that men are physically stronger than women changes the dynamics of all interaction, even if in a very subtle way.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 10:23

I do believe some men are falsely accused. It must be shit for them

So how do we protect them?

I'm not wanting to protect rapists - punish them, let their criminal record impact on their lives forever more, anyone in the public eye.convicted should be treated no differently.

That doesn't mean that those men who are falsely accused deserve to have their lives ruined though does it? Because some men are utter utter shits, who do despicable things all men should pay the price?

Lweji · 16/09/2018 10:25

I think the issue with single sex spaces becoming popular is that it could create an expectation that the sexes don't mix and thus normalise segregation.

But single sex spaces are being created in spaces that are traditionally male only or where women tend to be considered accessories/girlfriends. Such as bikers clubs.
Or to open activities to cultural groups where women have been prevented from joining mixed groups.

Those women only spaces are meant to normalise association of women in an equal footing to those activities.

Lweji · 16/09/2018 10:26

So how do we protect them?

I'd rather concentrate on protecting women from rape.
Falsely accused men are already protected by assumption of innocence before proof.

treaclesoda · 16/09/2018 10:26

Masculinity isn't the same as what is referred to as 'toxic masculinity' Hmm

When people refer to toxic masculinity they are talking about young men driven to suicide because they have been brought up to believe that boys don't cry, and admitting to having feelings is a weakness. No one is saying that a preference for learning to put up shelves instead of learning to knit (to use just one gender stereotype) is toxic, it's only toxic if the boy in question would actually prefer to be knitting but has been sneered at and told that men don't knit.

BertrandRussell · 16/09/2018 10:28

“That doesn't mean that those men who are falsely accused deserve to have their lives ruined though does it?”

No. But does it? Men who have been flasks acvused of rape seem to get a huge amount of media and public sympathy. And what about people who are falsely accused of any crime? What about them? Why shiuldn’t they beanonymous?

And you haven’t addressed my point about naming an accused man bringing out other victims who have not previously spoken.