To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

You rarely see men complaining that there are too few male care assistants, cleaners and check out operators either

You don't see it very often, but it does happen - men who express an interest in nursery nursing and early years teaching tend to get looked at with a lot of suspicion, for example. I looked into doing that when DS1 was little and got a distinct impression of "This is women's territory; why would a man be interested?"

And a woman giving you side eye, whilst it may make you feel self conscious or unwelcome, doesn’t make you feel unsafe, does it?

No it doesn't make me feel unsafe it makes me feel unwelcome and uncomfortable but the PP said the same about men in her gym - they looked at her, made her feel uncomfortable, mansplained - that wasn't saying she felt unsafe but that she felt uncomfortable.

The view here appears to be that women only spaces are welcoming and safe for women. Not necessarily. Yes they will keep women safe from rapists or men intent on physically harming women but they won't keep women safe from women seeking to undermine or belittle other women will they?

“Because a small number of women make up allegations against men and when that happens his life is ruined.”

Actually, I don’t see much evidence of men’s lives being ruined by false accusations, but I am prepared to be convinced by data.

The point of men not being anonymous (apart from the fact that accused people usually aren’t) is that other victims often come forward once one woman has been brave enough to make the accusation. Which makes a conviction more likely.

“The view here appears to be that women only spaces are welcoming and safe for women. Not necessarily. Yes they will keep women safe from rapists or men intent on physically harming women but they won't keep women safe from women seeking to undermine or belittle other women will they?”

No. And using women only spaces isn’t compulsory. Don’t like them? Don’t use them.

OMG dottie. You know I am not victim blaming. I am saying that if, from this day forward we teach our girls from babies that they are equal and can stand up to a boy when he is being intimidating not just have Rainbows/Brownies/GirlGuides to keep them away from the “bully boys”. Then it will get better. Not that I am just blaming the Girl Guide movement for our issues here that is just a start. Then boys will ‘likely’ grow up with s different attitude to women. A dream probably!

Erm women only sports events are a necessity as are men only sport events. There is a clear difference in biology between men and women. Stop acting thick.

golden
Agree. On a global level and not just in our western bubble this is really shocking.
As an example, just scroll through the Forbes list of billionaires. First of all many many more men than women on there. I also suspect (but would be happily proved wrong) that most if not all women on the list are heiresses.
Can my daughters become self made billionaires? What are their chances of wielding some real economic power? As long as their odds are so far behind those of a boy born the same day, we won't have true equality (And that's without going into all the developing world's problems)

There are plenty PLENTY places for men. The least of my concerns is the poor men. Honestly.

My gym has a ladies only section. It’s great.

“The view here appears to be that women only spaces are welcoming and safe for women. Not necessarily. Yes they will keep women safe from rapists or men intent on physically harming women but they won't keep women safe from women seeking to undermine or belittle other women will they?”

Personally I think I'd rather cope with the odd bit of 'undermining' than being felt up or assaulted or stalked or raped... Although my experience of going to women's gyms has been wholly positive, whereas on the odd occasion when I've used a men's gym it's been very intimidating...

Secondly, if you are justifying women being encouraged into a traditional men only sport by now having women only events then I guess that you will be totally fine with a traditionally women only sport or hobby putting on special men only events in order to encourage men along will you?

Thats absolutely fine by me. Why wouldnt it be. There are quite a few things my sons have been put off by when they thought theyd be the only boy which I found a real shame

straightjeans who are you talking to, you have not read the thread I am not talking about clear differences between sporting abilities of men and women.

Just for a bit of balance I know 0 men that have been falsely accused of rape but I know several women who have been raped. On any given thread vaguely related to this subject several people pop up to say they know a man who’s life has been ruined by false rape allegations. I’ve seen it so many times on here that I don’t believe it anymore. If it happened with the frequency it’s reported on mn everyone would know a man who has been falsely accused of rape and it’s ruined his life.

“The view here appears to be that women only spaces are welcoming and safe for women. Not necessarily. Yes they will keep women safe from rapists or men intent on physically harming women but they won't keep women safe from women seeking to undermine or belittle other women will they?”

Bit bloody different isnt it though. Women dont have segregated spaces because theyre worried men might look at them funny or say something bitchy.

*That wheelchair users would be told to know your place and stop pushing for better legal protection from street harassment and discrimination? "Take it as a compliment they even noticed you."

That wheelchair users would be told it's unfair on businesses and other employees to expect the reasonable adjustments necessary to working practices and buildings that would enable them to participate in the workplace on the same terms as their colleagues? That making adaptations doesn't make business sense and gives them special treatment*

You think that doesn't still happen?

I had an issue with a women-only career advice club / group at work (officially part of the diversity network). Just plain stupid, and I can only imagine the outcry if a male-only career club was formed.

A number of years ago a woman taxi driver in London set up a taxi service for women and children only with all the taxis driven by women.

How wonderful, we all thought, a taxi service where we can feel safe and know our daughters would be safe.

No it wasn't wonderful. A man objected to this safe place for women and it was rule that it was discriminatory. Obviously, it eventually closed.

Even something as simple as that, something to make women feel safer, wasn't allowed because women it seems shouldn't be allowed to have their safe places.

It's happening more and more now and more of our safe places are being made available to men.

I don't think you need to feel women are getting a free ride in the equality stakes OP. Men will always find a way to have the upper hand.

I am saying that if, from this day forward we teach our girls from babies that they are equal and can stand up to a boy when he is being intimidating not just have Rainbows/Brownies/GirlGuides to keep them away from the “bully boys”

I've been to years of mixed Karate and Krav Maga classes I can handle myself in a lot of situations but I'm a short woman and from sparring with boys and men, I know in a lot of situations doesn't matter how much training I have, their sheer physical strength means they will win out...Also what's wrong with female culture? I do women's only things and, it should be clear from doing martial arts, mixed activities. There are things I can talk to with other women that I can't talk about in the same way with men. It's not about inferiority or superiority just difference.

No its real men only groups get shut down as people scream sexism or discrimination.

There was a case a awhile ago that a local council run community centre had a young male only art group on a Wednesday ( there was a mixed group on a monday and female only on a thursday).

The group was told they cannot have a male only group session as people complianed about it being discriminatory so they cannot allow them to use the hall anymore despite them hosting girl guides that activly ban males but apprantly thats allowed.

“There was a case a awhile ago that a local council run community centre had a young male only art group on a Wednesday ( there was a mixed group on a monday and female only on a thursday).”

Where was this?

In that example Arthuritis how would anonymity for the male have helped the situation he now apparently finds himself in?

Because what now follows him around is the fact that he was accused of something. Many people I'm sure take the view of "no smoke without fire".
It's obvious from your tone that you think he actually did it as it is from @BertrandRussell post.

For those of you on here with sons if they got falsely accused of something and that then stayed on their record for life and stopped them from getting certain jobs you would all be " oh that's fine. My son is collateral damage in or fight to protect women" would you? Or would you think that is unfair. He is innocent and the victim of a woman making things up?

No. And using women only spaces isn’t compulsory. Don’t like them? Don’t use them.

Where I can I don't use them. There isn't always that choice though. I was bullied horribly at school by girls because of a disability. I couldn't do PE very well and my life was miserable because of it. That carries on now at the gym etc. That example of men belittling you in the gym - I've never had that. I have had exactly that treatment from women though.

You say that treatment from men is wrong yet when I say I get it from women and how it makes me feel you all say "oh is that all. They're only looking at you". No the women are doing to me what the men are doing to you.

Why is it ok for women to do it?

“am saying that if, from this day forward we teach our girls from babies that they are equal and can stand up to a boy when he is being intimidating”

Or maybe teach our boys not to be intimidating? Just a thought......

Bertrand excellent point, as usual women are being expected to take responsibility for problematic expressions of masculinity.

I wouldn't know where to start responding to the OP, but have RTFT so wanted to say how much I applaud and and grateful for, the incredible responses.

I had an issue with a women-only career advice club / group at work (officially part of the diversity network).

What was your issue with it?

I remember a thread where a mum wanted to set up a boys only craft session in a council owned community hall, was initially given permission but this was withdrawn when a parent complained (about it being boys only). And the mum got lots of good advice on here as to how to challenge that and was, I believe, ultimately successful.
Is that what you're thinking of worrid?