To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

And what privilege does my son have that my daughter doesn't?

Sorry, we were getting the wee ones bathed and into bed.

The white privilege analogy is a good one. Being white means we have white privilege, it doesn’t mean we want it or abuse it, but it’s very important that we acknowledge that being white means we are not exposed to microaggressions and indeed open aggression faced on a daily basis by BAME people.

Recognising that aspects of life are easier, or less stressful because we are white and listening to BAME people when they tell us of their experiences and not dismissing or minimising the oppression they face.

Similarly, as a disabled woman, there are micro aggressions and open aggression I face, as a woman and as a person with a disability. These are things that men, and able bodied people are not affected by, but can listen and be part of the change to improve things.

Found it www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40936719/gender-specific-toys-do-you-stereotype-children

There's been lots of research that all show the same conclusions, at every age. Remove any indicator of sex from CVs for instance, and the pattern of recruitment of the sexes changes.

142 on my list was said to a poster on this thread by the OP

The ability to walk down a street without feeling like prey in a world of predators is a big one. The ability not to get pregnant. The assumption of being better than girls in a range of perceived-important areas that then attract higher salaries. Higher status generally. Higher wage earning potential unencumbered in any real way be dependents. A raised status if one has dependents even though one does no work for them whatsoever, compared to a much reduced status for women who do the bulk of the work for children. The assumption that he can do no domestic work whatsoever and some girl should always be doing it for him. All that's just what occurred to me in one instant.

See some of these I think do apply to men (although admittedly the fear of attack would be from other men) but is it male privilege to say that you fear being attacked by another man?

The ability not to get pregnant - I would not see that as a privilege. The best and most amazing experience of my life has been pregnancy and giving birth.

The assumption that he can do no domestic work - never happened. At home he did his share. Now he lives on his own he does it all.

The other parts - I can see how in some jobs that happens. But it isn't in all. So for some men in certain economic groups only a small part of that list will apply.

And I am not a man. That is so offensive for you to say that.

What is a woman to you? Can women only think in a certain way? If I don't conform to your idea of a woman then I am not a woman?

Is that what you are saying?

^But a) when I suggested women and men have the same amount of leave ie 12 months each I got ridiculed that it would cost too much

And

B) the current system says that men and women can agree to share the leave. This is what the agreement was and then the woman changed her mind.

This particular man can't campaign for a new system in time for his circumstance can he?^

So men should only concern themselves with changing things if it will benefit them directly?

Why are you worrying about this one man? Why are using this, thinking it's an example of men having it tough? Why are you worrying about the one man you heard of who was falsely accused of something? Why are you thinking it's an example of men having it tough?

Why is it a womans responsibility to do that?

Your daughter, at the age of 16 has already learned that it is common for males to harass and humiliate her in public by talking about her body, and that it is safer for her to do nothing but sit there and be silent and scared. Because she already knows it's likely they'll hurt her if she objects or 'stands up for herself'.

And women are supposed to take responsibility for that too?

"Your daughter, at the age of 16 has already learned that it is common for males to harass and humiliate her in public by talking about her body, and that it is safer for her to do nothing but sit there and be silent and scared. Because she already knows it's likely they'll hurt her if she objects or 'stands up for herself'. "

Oh yes. Not only that it is common, in fact, but fully and completely legal, even encouraged. That she should always be basically a thing for men to exploit in order to boost their own status and ego.

I'm glad you had a nice time giving birth. Hmmm.

Being a woman is being biologically female, and knowing what it is like to live as a woman. Knowing the social codes with which one has to conform. How is it that you don't know this? Do you think it is just a thought in a man's head?

And what privilege does my son have that my daughter doesn't?

Actually, using your own example of your teenage daughter being talked about offensively by a group of teenage boys because she was female, leching about her breasts.

Has this ever happened to your son? Has he ever been sexually objectified by a group of women/girls? Because they thought it was their right to do so?

I’m sure you’ll say he has, but it’s might unlikely.

That, right there, is male privilege. That he’s probably lived his entire life without cat calls, comments about his genitals, comments about his sexual worth. Even if there have been one or two instances, I’d be willing to bet my house your daughter has experienced and will experience more.

While I'm sure the impact mainly happens later, there is a wealth of evidence that people react differently and speak differently to boys and girls.

I imagine your son's privilege include being complimented and valued more for his character qualities than his outward appearance, not having his physical activity curtailed by less practical clothing and shoes, having far greater access to books and tv programmes depicting heroes of the same gender.

Maybe in part this is where my difficulty is coming from. Neither me or my daughter have ever been girly girls and as a family we've had the same hobbies.

So maybe those issues have not been quite so stark. So when I compare my son and daughter's lives they are quite similar apart from a few obvious encounters.

Your son will never be opressed by his biology. As women are globally.

There's the privilege right there.

Has this ever happened to your son? Has he ever been sexually objectified by a group of women/girls? Because they thought it was their right to do so?
I'll know you will disbelieve me but yes it has.

He works with teenagers and recently got told by another teacher that all the girls fancy him - he was distraught.

It's not the same as my daughter. But it's not an entirely different experience.

I'm sure had the boys who said things to my daughter been older or she'd been on her own then the fear would have been greater. But actually the objetification for both of them and the feelings evoked were quite similar when I've spoken to them.

Of course toxic masculinity is bad for men and boys and of course the patriarchy is damaging to men and boys. Feminism has been saying this for ages!

What the OP has said today are the words of a true feminist. I admire her, unlike the "pretend" feminists, hypocritical keyboard warriors that are usually on MN "feminist" board, but run over here to argue and insult any woman who dares to disagree with their crusade. A crusade for "all women" except disabled women and anyone who believes NAMALT (selective feminism). Carry on thinking and living the way you do @crazydoglady6867 because real feminists need women like you. Thank you so much for your refreshing words, it's been like a breath of fresh air.

He works with teenagers and recently got told by another teacher that all the girls fancy him - he was distraught

I’m sure he was, and that’s not right.

Has he had to cope with things like that being said all his life, or was that a shocking experience because it was a one off?

Who the heck are all these real feminists now?

tillytop only OP called me out on something directly related to my own disability, and didn’t respond when I told her that.

The ability not to get pregnant - I would not see that as a privilege. The best and most amazing experience of my life has been pregnancy and giving birth.

Oh come on. You don't think that not having to worry about pregnancy every time you have sex isnt a privilege?

I agree that the clichés you are coming out with are getting a bit much now.

You don't know anyone who has been raped but you do know someone who was falsely accused.

When your kid had a male infant teacher all the mums said he must be a paedophile.

When you were breastfeeding, no man ever made a comment, but women were horrible to you about it.

Your son has been sexually objectified by women.

Keep em coming......

Why are you worrying about this one man? Why are using this, thinking it's an example of men having it tough? Why are you worrying about the one man you heard of who was falsely accused of something? Why are you thinking it's an example of men having it tough?

Because I am the mother of a son and I do worry about his experience in this world.

Your daughter, at the age of 16 has already learned that it is common for males to harass and humiliate her in public by talking about her

Once it has happened. Not commonly to her and only once to me and I'm in my late 40s so not common to me either.

I mention an experience that a man had and I get told "this happened to 1 man it's not representative".

I'm glad you had a nice time giving birth. Hmmm.

I didn't have a nice time giving birth actually - 1st time I had an emergency c section because of pre eclampsia and nearly died. 2nd time I had a PPH. Not nice at all. Still the best thing I've ever experienced.

Being a woman is being biologically female, and knowing what it is like to live as a woman. Knowing the social codes with which one has to conform. How is it that you don't know this? Do you think it is just a thought in a man's head?

I meant what do you think a woman is and why are you so sure that I am not one? Clearly I don't fit some construct that you have of a woman do I?

Elephant

You think your son felt the same hearing from someone he knows that some girls fancy him, as your daughter felt when a group of male strangers started talking about her tits and harassing, humiliating and frightening her in public?

I was taking your posts in good faith but you've gone too far with that one.

@Elephantinacravat

So that's what half a dozen things that have happened in my life?

Yes they are all true.

I can't prove them to you but they are true and they happened.

If you say X happened to you how would it make you feel if I start saying oh come on. Yeah right it did?

Sorry if it offends your views of the world being so black and white.

But all of these things have happened to me.

What the OP has said today are the words of a true feminist. I admire her, unlike the "pretend" feminists, hypocritical keyboard warriors that are usually on MN "feminist" board, but run over here to argue and insult any woman who dares to disagree with their crusade. A crusade for "all women" except disabled women and anyone who believes NAMALT (selective feminism). Carry on thinking and living the way you do @crazydoglady6867 because real feminists need women like you. Thank you so much for your refreshing words, it's been like a breath of fresh air. flowers

Oh riiiiiight. Feminism only done your way?

“Pretend feminist”

Oh I forgot the best bit..this is your adult, teacher son who was 'distraught' to hear some girls fancy him.

You think your son felt the same hearing from someone he knows that some girls fancy him, as your daughter felt when a group of male strangers started talking about her tits and harassing, humiliating and frightening her in public?

I was taking your posts in good faith but you've gone too far with that one.

Do you know I don't know.

My daughter was embarrassed - she says more because I was there than anything else. Don't know if that is true. She says it so I believe her.

My son was mortified. I think because he feels he is there in a professional capacity and wants to be taken seriously.

Different things aren't they? Both unwanted harassment based on their physical appearance. Neither is right in my opinion.

Women and men have as much right to go about their business without unwarranted comments about their appearance.

Yes it's probably far more common for women to experience it. Doesn't make it right when it happens to men though.

A teacher might well be distraught if pupils fancy him actually. OK, laws of averages might throw up some extremes. But why would women be suspicious of a male teacher? No reason, just natural bias? How many women get raped, and killed every year by men again? How many men get raped and killed by women?