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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

999 replies

crazydoglady6867 · 16/09/2018 08:05

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 16/09/2018 18:51

What does male privilege look like though?

Really? Confused

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:52

Just an observation: arthuritis has apparently got a male friend who is a totally innocent man who has been falsely accused of rape

Nope. Not true at all.

That is you jumping to conclusions.

And I'm sorry but yes the other situations are entirely true.

I'm sorry if it doesn't fit with your view of the world but they are my experiences.

RedDogsBeg · 16/09/2018 18:53

I don't for one minute think those boys would have behaved the way they did towards your daughter if she had been on the bus with her dad.

Who teaches boys without fathers or boys whose fathers are not good role models, I would say those that have the power to do so i.e., men in power and position to not only change the structural imbalance but to change attitudes within society as a whole.

If all the good men spoke up their voices would be heard because mens voices carry far more weight than womens. Look at all the people around who influence us, who decide on policies, laws, etc., how many of them are men?

POAlockdown · 16/09/2018 18:54

But surely if men hear of instances like this that is the conclusion that they will draw?

What conclusion?

I would really hope that in the (small) number of instances where a man wants to spend six months at home with his child, he'll campaign for mens paternity rights, not want to take half the leave that women fought for.

It's always women being pushed aside, their rights infringed. Women having to sacrifice something.

And if any men uses his wife not wanting to give up six months of her MAT leave to him as a moan that 'men can't do right for doing wrong', he'd be a really stupid person.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:56

@JacquesHammer

Yes really.

Help me explain to my son, who doesn't come from a privileged (in the material sense) background how he benefits from male privilege.

How do I explain that his life, which to me seems to have very similar benefits as that of his sister, actually benefits from male privilege.

I'm not being goady. I'm genuinely trying to understand.

A young man from a working class background - what benefits can I tell him are as a result of him being male?

RedDogsBeg · 16/09/2018 18:58

Er no it isn't MephistopolesApprentice, there seems to be a lack of comprehension on your part, how you came to that conclusion is quite baffling.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 19:02

I don't for one minute think those boys would have behaved the way they did towards your daughter if she had been on the bus with her dad

I don't think they would have done it had they known she was with me tbh. She was sitting separately cos who wants to be seen with their mum!

What they saw was a girl on her own.

My point is saying why is it womens responsibility to teach boys - well no it isn't. Initially it's the parents responsibility surely? But in the absence of decent parents surely then it's everyone's responsibility to teach by example or to confront directly?

I can't see the benefit for women if we abdicate this and say it's up to men.

That's not saying it's only up to women. It's up to us all.

WrongOnTInternet · 16/09/2018 19:02

Look, this question of maternity / paternity rights isn't really doing you any favours. You're assuming that equality means being the same - and for you, that same defaults to the current male dominated world. Many women breastfeed, which is to be encouraged (another whole minefield here). That is something men simply cannot provide, so simply giving men a slice of women's maternity rights is not going to be a good solution, ever.

What feminists say is that the child's need to nurse and women's ned to provide that nursing should be recognised as an essential need by society and provided for, in the name of equality.

WrongOnTInternet · 16/09/2018 19:04

And as far as poor parents of sons asking how they explain male privilege to their sons, why shouldn't us poor parents of females ask how the hell we explain to our daughters that they are systematically disadvantaged and will most likely be raped at some point. Also not really proving any points except the one that says boys' feelings are somehow more important than everything else.

SpeedbirdFoxtrot · 16/09/2018 19:04

Fuckinghell CrazyDogLady, I don't think I've ever seen such circular and ignorant arguments.

Why the emphasis on only teaching our daughters to not be intimidated? Surely if there's something women feel intimidated by en-masse, we need to educate on the other side of the coin too?

As for effecting change, I'm sure a PP has said this, but do you honestly think parliament woke up one day and decided "Ho-hum, those vagina owners can vote now. Let's give them a shot."? Women have been effecting change for years. Via long and arduous processes. They died at the feet of horses, they were force-fed and separated from their children, and they fought hard to secure the contraceptives that have contributed towards lower maternal mortality rates here in the west. We have made significant strides, and it isn't unreasonable to expect men to work with us on this while our efforts continue. Your argument about 'effecting' change in your OH just sound plain creepy, if I'm honest. And, deluded. It's also hardly the type of grassroots action that will address the societal harms that occur worldwide as a result of ongoing misogyny. I mean, well done that your OH no longer speaks to you as though he's Roy Chubby Brown, but do you honestly feel you've made some sort of award-worthy stride there?

As for the exercise issue...please try to see the broader benefits. Having safe spaces isn't just beneficial for those who need them because of negative experiences. For generational, confidence, and cultural reasons, not all women want to exercise with men (and vice-versa). If we remove the facilities that allow them to do so, they lose an outlet that reduces social isolation, promotes better mental health, helps address chronic pain conditions, enhances post-operative recovery. On a social level, is that not far more beneficial than withdrawing such facilities altogether, just because some lads are feeling a bit sniffly and the cool girls who walk behind them are trying to lap up a few man points?

If you are that fucked off by a women's only group, don't attend. Go 'effect' your change by starting a mixed group. Your gold star for supporting the menz will be in the post.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 19:05

@POAlockdown

But a) when I suggested women and men have the same amount of leave ie 12 months each I got ridiculed that it would cost too much

And

B) the current system says that men and women can agree to share the leave. This is what the agreement was and then the woman changed her mind.

This particular man can't campaign for a new system in time for his circumstance can he?

ItsLikeNew · 16/09/2018 19:06

Help me explain to my son, who doesn't come from a privileged (in the material sense) background how he benefits from male privilege

it's start

whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

all below the line is a quote from the link
----------------

I’ve been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word “privilege,” to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon. It’s not that the word “privilege” is incorrect, it’s that it’s not their word. When confronted with “privilege,” they fiddle with the word itself, and haul out the dictionaries and find every possible way to talk about the word but not any of the things the word signifies.

So, the challenge: how to get across the ideas bound up in the word “privilege,” in a way that your average straight white man will get, without freaking out about it?

Being a white guy who likes women, here’s how I would do it:

Dudes. Imagine life here in the US — or indeed, pretty much anywhere in the Western world — is a massive role playing game, like World of Warcraft except appallingly mundane, where most quests involve the acquisition of money, cell phones and donuts, although not always at the same time. Let’s call it The Real World. You have installed The Real World on your computer and are about to start playing, but first you go to the settings tab to bind your keys, fiddle with your defaults, and choose the difficulty setting for the game. Got it?

Okay: In the role playing game known as The Real World, “Straight White Male” is the lowest difficulty setting there is.

This means that the default behaviors for almost all the non-player characters in the game are easier on you than they would be otherwise. The default barriers for completions of quests are lower. Your leveling-up thresholds come more quickly. You automatically gain entry to some parts of the map that others have to work for. The game is easier to play, automatically, and when you need help, by default it’s easier to get.

Now, once you’ve selected the “Straight White Male” difficulty setting, you still have to create a character, and how many points you get to start — and how they are apportioned — will make a difference. Initially the computer will tell you how many points you get and how they are divided up. If you start with 25 points, and your dump stat is wealth, well, then you may be kind of screwed. If you start with 250 points and your dump stat is charisma, well, then you’re probably fine. Be aware the computer makes it difficult to start with more than 30 points; people on higher difficulty settings generally start with even fewer than that.

As the game progresses, your goal is to gain points, apportion them wisely, and level up. If you start with fewer points and fewer of them in critical stat categories, or choose poorly regarding the skills you decide to level up on, then the game will still be difficult for you. But because you’re playing on the “Straight White Male” setting, gaining points and leveling up will still by default be easier, all other things being equal, than for another player using a higher difficulty setting.

Likewise, it’s certainly possible someone playing at a higher difficulty setting is progressing more quickly than you are, because they had more points initially given to them by the computer and/or their highest stats are wealth, intelligence and constitution and/or simply because they play the game better than you do. It doesn’t change the fact you are still playing on the lowest difficulty setting.

You can lose playing on the lowest difficulty setting. The lowest difficulty setting is still the easiest setting to win on. The player who plays on the “Gay Minority Female” setting? Hardcore.

And maybe at this point you say, hey, I like a challenge, I want to change my difficulty setting! Well, here’s the thing: In The Real World, you don’t unlock any rewards or receive any benefit for playing on higher difficulty settings. The game is just harder, and potentially a lot less fun. And you say, okay, but what if I want to replay the game later on a higher difficulty setting, just to see what it’s like? Well, here’s the other thing about The Real World: You only get to play it once. So why make it more difficult than it has to be? Your goal is to win the game, not make it difficult.

Oh, and one other thing. Remember when I said that you could choose your difficulty setting in The Real World? Well, I lied. In fact, the computer chooses the difficulty setting for you. You don’t get a choice; you just get what gets given to you at the start of the game, and then you have to deal with it.

So that’s “Straight White Male” for you in The Real World (and also, in the real world): The lowest difficulty setting there is. All things being equal, and even when they are not, if the computer — or life — assigns you the “Straight White Male” difficulty setting, then brother, you’ve caught a break.

WrongOnTInternet · 16/09/2018 19:07

All of these supposed 'arguments', along with the thread, absolutely reek of the problem someone mentioned upthread - that when you are used to privilege, equality looks like oppression. Women are finally getting somewhere, finally getting their perspectives and points of view across, and that really upsets some men people.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 19:08

@WrongOnTInternet

So I'm not about to tell my daughter that she is likely to be raped at some stage!!

And what privilege does my son have that my daughter doesn't?

I can't see any and none of you are explaining any so I'm starting to think it's just an unsubstantiated claim tbh.

RedDogsBeg · 16/09/2018 19:11

I don't think I've ever said it is entirely up to men, what I have said is where are they? Why is it that the only people doing the talking and raising awareness are women? Where are the men teaching by example and confronting?

What I have said, repeatedly, is if there are so many good men around and some of them must then by default be in positions of power and influence why are they not doing anything?

WrongOnTInternet · 16/09/2018 19:11

And what privilege does my son have that my daughter doesn't?

Where to start??? LOL. I can't believe you actually wrote that!

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 19:13

@ItsLikeNew
Thank you for trying.

I still can't understand though.

It's saying imagine you start at this level as a straight white man.

So it is assuming that privilege.

But what is that privilege? So when did my son start to benefit? At birth? 1 year? 2 years? When he started school?

How was his toddlerhood more privileged than his sister's? Or does it not work like that?

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 19:15

Where to start??? LOL. I can't believe you actually wrote that!

Well I did because I can't see it and I can't understand it.

So if it is so obvious why can't someone explain it to me?

Why is the response to belittle and deride?

WrongOnTInternet · 16/09/2018 19:16

The ability to walk down a street without feeling like prey in a world of predators is a big one. The ability not to get pregnant. The assumption of being better than girls in a range of perceived-important areas that then attract higher salaries. Higher status generally. Higher wage earning potential unencumbered in any real way be dependents. A raised status if one has dependents even though one does no work for them whatsoever, compared to a much reduced status for women who do the bulk of the work for children. The assumption that he can do no domestic work whatsoever and some girl should always be doing it for him. All that's just what occurred to me in one instant.

You are a man aren't you. It's very obvious or you wouldn't even think of asking that of women, who all know the amount of domestic work we are expected to shoulder for no reward, in fact a reduced status.

WrongOnTInternet · 16/09/2018 19:17

And it starts at birth. There was a BBC short film showing how we treat babies differently from birth according to perceived sex. I'll try and find it.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 19:17

I don't think I've ever said it is entirely up to men, what I have said is where are they? Why is it that the only people doing the talking and raising awareness are women? Where are the men teaching by example and confronting?

I agree.

What I have said, repeatedly, is if there are so many good men around and some of them must then by default be in positions of power and influence why are they not doing anything?

And here I disagree because there are men trying to do something - not enough admittedly but not none.

ItsLikeNew · 16/09/2018 19:19

Arthuritis if you are that flummoxed about privilege, then maybe you should start reading around, get some books look on the internet, whatever.

If you don't want to read something from some nasty man hating feminist, maybe try looking for stuff from Greyson Perry's about 'default man'.

GoldenWonderwall · 16/09/2018 19:20

9.43 this morning arthuritis :

‘Because a small number of women make up allegations against men and when that happens his life is ruined.

I know a man who had an accusation made against him. Full investigation conducted both by his employer and by the police.

Both found no case to answer. No evidence at all to support the allegation.

He now cannot get another job because this allegation shows up on his DBS check. The lady in question meanwhile has moved on with nothing on her record.’

Every misogynist cliche in the book has happened in your life hasn’t it? How awful women must be in general, for you to be surrounded by such stereotypical specimens! Obviously, it’s much worse for the men of your acquaintance. Poor lambs.

Stompythedinosaur · 16/09/2018 19:20

While I'm sure the impact mainly happens later, there is a wealth of evidence that people react differently and speak differently to boys and girls.

I imagine your son's privilege include being complimented and valued more for his character qualities than his outward appearance, not having his physical activity curtailed by less practical clothing and shoes, having far greater access to books and tv programmes depicting heroes of the same gender.