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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

999 replies

crazydoglady6867 · 16/09/2018 08:05

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

OP posts:
RedDogsBeg · 16/09/2018 18:18

Does no one worry that blaming men for everything that we will end up making the situation worse?

I don't blame men for everything.

Do you tell them from birth that they must spend their lives atoning for all men?

No, I don't expect them to spend their lives atoning for all men. I expect them to acknowledge the wrong that the class which they were born into has done and is still doing and I expect them to challenge it, advocate for and support those who are trying to change it, and, above all, not to be afraid to do so.

POAlockdown · 16/09/2018 18:19

So that decent, good men (and there are lots) end up feeling like there's no point? That no matter what they say or do or how they act they are to blame.

Are you saying 'decent' men will think there's no point in not raping women because other men do it?

So women, the raped ones, should stop talking about it and reporting it because it might upset men?

ItsLikeNew · 16/09/2018 18:21

They started to make comments about her breasts and I watched her getting more and more embarrassed so I stood up and challenged them. Asked them why they were saying what they were saying, did they think it was ok, would it be ok for someone to talk about their mum like that. Should I have left it to a man to do that then? Because why was it my job as a woman?

what is your point? do you think I would not do the same or another person, what about if there was a man on the bus would you have expected him to do what you did (in your absence? he should have shouldn't he? how many men do you know who would have done that? why don't you go ask on pistonheads if they are all as virtuous you?

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:22

@ItsLikeNew

But the point raised on here seems to be that even if they're a good decent man(and that has been disputed - after all how do I know that the decent men in my life aren't actually rapists) they are still benefitting massively from male privilege and as such men, as a class, are responsible for the behaviour of all men.

How do you deliver this message to men without them running screaming for the hills?

Tell me how to explain this to my son.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:25

That’s awful, it should never have happened. If they had been taught decent and proper attitudes and behaviours in the first place, you wouldn’t have had to step in.

Thus bringing us back to teaching our sons how to behave appropriately.

Can you see that male privilege is what allowed them to think their behaviour was acceptable?

Yes I can see.

But they've had the upbringing that they've had and the change has to start somewhere - or they will raise their sons to do it.

So who breaks that cycle?

Yes ideally men. And the good men will. But many boys don't have good men as fathers. So who teaches them?

WrongOnTInternet · 16/09/2018 18:25

We've got the op complaining that women should be talking and telling men off more, and then we've got Arthuritis saying that we'll upset the poor men when we do.

Women can't win either way!

Agustarella · 16/09/2018 18:25

You can always organise a mens/mixed bike thing if the lack of one irks you. I don't see the problem.

I'd forgotten The Worm thst Turned! God that was weird!

ItsLikeNew · 16/09/2018 18:28

Tell me how to explain this to my son

The same I tell my son's the same as I would tell my daughter's. they know they are not to blame for the actions of other men, but the see how the world is. They are aware of themselves.

toxic masculinity is as damaging to boys/men as it is girls and women.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:29

Are you saying 'decent' men will think there's no point in not raping women because other men do it?

No you're putting words into my mouth.

Let's use an example mentioned here earlier.

A good man wants to share the care of his baby. Agreed before birth that wife will take 6 months and husband will take 6 months.

After baby is born wife decides that she wants to use all of her maternity leave so that the man can't take any.

Posters on here saying good. It's her leave why should she have to share it.

So the man here is trying to do all the right things yet the women stops it.

That's what I mean - men can't do right for doing wrong.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:31

@Agustarella

The whole point being the men were told they cannot have a men only bike ride.

MephistophelesApprentice · 16/09/2018 18:32

No, I don't expect them to spend their lives atoning for all men. I expect them to acknowledge the wrong that the class which they were born into has done and is still doing and I expect them to challenge it, advocate for and support those who are trying to change it, and, above all, not to be afraid to do so.

That is the most hilarious statement of feminist hypocrisy that I have ever seen. What you have just described is literally a life of atonement for their classes sins.

Just admit it. Feminism just wants men riveted into the armour ofwhite knight, traditional-male-guardian role, but this time broken to heel by the lash of underserved shame.

ItsLikeNew · 16/09/2018 18:32

Today 18:29 Arthuritis

err?

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:33

The same I tell my son's the same as I would tell my daughter's. they know they are not to blame for the actions of other men, but the see how the world is. They are aware of themselves.

toxic masculinity is as damaging to boys/men as it is girls and women.

Good luck arguing that point on here.

I've been doing it all day.

You just get called a misogynist for expressing views like that.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:36

Today 18:29 Arthuritis

err?

Err what?

When good men try and do the right thing they are told it's the wrong thing and that they are trampling over women's rights by doing so.

CosmicCanary · 16/09/2018 18:37

So the man here is trying to do all the right things yet the women stops it.

The right thing for him to do would be to fight for his own longer paternity rights. Instead of piggy backing off women who have fought for many years for better maternity rights at work.

ItsLikeNew · 16/09/2018 18:37

Good luck arguing that point on here

I've been doing it all day

from the few posts I've seen of yours, no you haven't.

and I've been around MN and on and off the feminist boards for a few years now. not any problems yet.

POAlockdown · 16/09/2018 18:38

Arthuritis - you're talking about individuals again. The situation you're talking about re: one man wanting shared maternity leave isn't an example of men as a class being oppressed by women as a class but you're acting like it is.

It also doesn't have any relevance to your statement So that decent, good men (and there are lots) end up feeling like there's no point? That no matter what they say or do or how they act they are to blame. so it's not an example of that either.

YeTalkShiteHen · 16/09/2018 18:39

Yes ideally men. And the good men will. But many boys don't have good men as fathers. So who teaches them?

In the absence of men, we do. It should not be a responsibility solely placed on women though.

toxic masculinity is as damaging to boys/men as it is girls and women.

I’ve said similar, although I’d say aspects of toxic masculinity rather than toxic masculinity as a whole, on this thread in the context of working with veterans to prevent suicide.

There are a disproportionate amount of male forces veterans taking their own lives, exactly because of toxic masculinity and the “lad” culture of the forces, the army in particular.

Nobody called me a misogynist.

It’s also an issue separate to and exclusive of the effect toxic masculinity has on women and girls.

Because one does not trump the other.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:44

@POAlockdown

But surely if men hear of instances like this that is the conclusion that they will draw?

I'm a woman (I promise for this who have that I absolutely am not) and I am totally confused by what men should and shouldn't be doing according to this board.

YeTalkShiteHen · 16/09/2018 18:45

I am totally confused by what men should and shouldn't be doing according to this board

Speaking up against toxic masculinity. Every single time they encounter it.

Recognising their male privilege and listening to women about how equality can be achieved. True equality.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:45

It also doesn't have any relevance to your statement So that decent, good men (and there are lots) end up feeling like there's no point? That no matter what they say or do or how they act they are to blame. so it's not an example of that either.

Then explain to me how it should be because I don't get it.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:47

Speaking up against toxic masculinity. Every single time they encounter it.

Recognising their male privilege and listening to women about how equality can be achieved. True equality.

What does male privilege look like though?

Does every man have it?

ItsLikeNew · 16/09/2018 18:48

and I am totally confused by what men should and shouldn't be doing according to this board

just to point out incase you thought this is the feminist board, it's not. It's AIBU (am I being unreasonable)

GoldenWonderwall · 16/09/2018 18:49

Just an observation: arthuritis has apparently got a male friend who is a totally innocent man who has been falsely accused of rape and had his life ruined, been on the school playground when all the mums repeatedly slagged off the one male teacher for obviously being a peadophile and breastfed for three years and only got negative comments from women. Whatever. You really need to try harder with your bullshit ‘why women and in particular feminists are the real problem that must be stopped’ shtick.

Arthuritis · 16/09/2018 18:49

@ItsLikeNew

I meant this thread. I apologise for my confusion.

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