To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

*We need to teach our girls to stand up for themselves so they can teach boys not to think it’s ok to rape a woman

Why the fuck is it the job of girls to teach boys not to rape? Why is everything women's responsibility?*

You do realise that by saying that girls need to teach boys that it's not ok to rape, you are assuming that without girls doing that boys would think it was ok to rape?

Similarly someone said upthread about the need for girls and women to be comfortable standing up for themselves in a masculine world - whoever it was clearly assumed in this statement that it is a masculine world.

Both of which assumptions clearly show that women and girls do need special rights.

We need to teach our girls to stand up for themselves so they can teach boys not to think it’s ok to rape a woman

The only part of that sentence you need is “we need to teach boys not to think it’s ok to rape a woman”.

I trained him how to be around a woman I effected the change I wanted

How utterly depressing you had to train an adult man. I can’t think of anything less attractive.

Yes. But bearing in mind that most bad behaviour in society is perpetrated by men, it would be nice if they took just a bit of collective responsibility, don't you think?

Absolutely.

@YeTalkShiteHen

But these crimes arent prevented by a DBS check are they?

We can't know how many crimes are prevented by DBS but how many DBS checks show information that stops a person getting a job (not false allegations. I mean rightfully stops a criminal) against how many people are found eventually to be working with vulnerable people when they really should have failed a DBS had their crimes be known?

Oh it's the responsibility of females to teach males not to rape us and we should 'train' them to be around women.

Of course.

We need to teach our girls to stand up for themselves so they can teach boys not to think it’s ok to rape a woman

I vehemently disagree that it is my daughter’s responsibility to teach boys not to rape her. It is absolutely their responsibility not to commit rape.

We can't know how many crimes are prevented by DBS but how many DBS checks show information that stops a person getting a job (not false allegations. I mean rightfully stops a criminal) against how many people are found eventually to be working with vulnerable people when they really should have failed a DBS had their crimes be known?

I don’t know, do you?

"We want our girls to grow up confident and our boys to grow up to appreciate that and love it"

Actually, I want our boys to grow up not to hit, rape and sexually harass girls and women. And I see no reason why it should be up to women to teach them that. I want the adult men in society now who don't do that sort of thing (which is most of them) to step up to the fucking plate and do something about the men who do.

When I first met my DH he came from a family where the man spoke, the woman listened. I fancied him, I fell in love with him, I trained him how to be around a woman I effected the change I wanted. I am sure he effected some changes about me, like I no longer smoke, I suppose he effected that change. That is very simplified but I am sure you can see where I am coming from.
We want our girls to grow up confident and our boys to grow up to appreciate that and love it. Someone needs to start the ball rolling to effect that change.

Ffs he changed because he loved you. You changed because you loved him. So now you think all females can change all males

Are you really that dense?

I posted earlier that I stood up to a man once. I refused to be intimidated by him. He broke my nose and my cheek bone.

As this has been going on ALL day I must leave for now, as a little boredom is setting in.

By stating, repeatedly, that women and girls need to stand up to men you are saying that there is a problem with men and their view of and attitudes towards women BUT women have to fix that for them.

Yes I agree you are very boring OP

However there are some very interesting posters on this thread so you wont be missed.

crazydoglady6867 your DH changed because he wanted to, that’s the key.

As I said upthread, my dad holds some archaic and misogynistic views, he won’t change because he doesn’t want to. In the course of that, he has hurt me, deeply. I forgive him, because he’s my dad, but it doesn’t mean I can’t recognise his flaws.

Ironically it’s only since my Mum died that he realises just how much she enabled him to go about his life and work without doing any of the daily grind.

Again, he’s not a bad man, he’s just an old man who has never recognised his male privilege.

He adored my Mum, he did the majority of the hands on care when she became ill, he was utterly devoted to her and would have taken the stars out of the sky for her had she asked him to.

It doesn’t mean he doesn’t hold views which are part of the problem.

Never in all my days did I believe I would see someone claiming to be a woman, who honestly believes that a man raping a woman is the fault of the brownies.

Seriously.

Give your head a wobble.

I’m out. Not spending my day arguing with someone so far disconnected from reality that she truly believes the girl guides are endangering female safety.

For fucks actual sake.

Were you the nutjob that put the South Battersea brownies on terfblocker too? 😂

It takes all sorts.

Does no one worry that blaming men for everything that we will end up making the situation worse?

So that decent, good men (and there are lots) end up feeling like there's no point? That no matter what they say or do or how they act they are to blame.

How do you even raise a son like this?

Do you tell them from birth that they must spend their lives atoning for all men?

Actually, I want our boys to grow up not to hit, rape and sexually harass girls and women. And I see no reason why it should be up to women to teach them that. I want the adult men in society now who don't do that sort of thing (which is most of them) to step up to the fucking plate and do something about the men who do.

Indeed, Bernard, and they have the wherewithal to do exactly that, so what's stopping them?

Do you tell them from birth that they must spend their lives atoning for all men?

No, not at all. I do expect them to challenge misogynistic views and not be part of them.

Actually, OP, has it ever occurred to you to stand up to your OH and other men bikers and explain why some women prefer women only rides and the reason not to have men only rides?
It seems to me that you're the one enabling men in their dominance.

So much dumb. So little time.

Having studied this at University I know there is not a single solitary country in the WHOLE world that has equal rights for women.

The rate at which women are raped ranges from 33% at it's lowest to 98% at it's highest.

Men are literally the biggest risk factors to women and girls and also to other men. More women are murdered by intimate partners than any other form of murder.

The UK does not acknowledge Domestic Violence as a crime. India does. This means the true rate of DV is hidden in statistics of assault, GBH and other lesser terms of assaults.

I don't know why women wouldn't be feminists. I don't know why you wouldn't be on your own team. Men are not on our team. If you don't think feminism has benefitted women then you are not understanding what you have the freedom to do that you wouldn't have without it, for example;

Have an opinion that isn't your husband's/brother's/father's.
Have a job.
Keep your own wages.
Have access to your children after a split.
Make decisions about your children.
Make decisons about your body.
Not be certified insane.
Vote.
Drive.
Use contraception.

So unless you don't want to go back to being told what to do, think or say I would suggest you ARE a feminist.

Does no one worry that blaming men for everything that we will end up making the situation worse?

Yes. Which is why we don't blame men for everything.
Just what they're responsible for.

I don’t have a job, I’m a carer for my disabled children. That doesn’t make me less of a feminist.

Granted my situation is unusual in that I am financially independent (in fact better off technically better off than DP, certainly in the event of a split he is the one who would be financially fucked).

In theory I agree with everything you’ve said, but not having a job, especially if you’re disabled or your child/children are, isn’t a barrier to being a feminist.

For the third time, if we WANT the change we need to effect it

Well many women and men want change and are going about it everyday. But to give you an example of what they are up against have a read of this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

We want to talk about protecting women from been locked up with rapists, and make sure it doesn't happen again. It's harder then you think.............

Actually, I want our boys to grow up not to hit, rape and sexually harass girls and women. And I see no reason why it should be up to women to teach them that. I want the adult men in society now who don't do that sort of thing (which is most of them) to step up to the fucking plate and do something about the men who do.

I don't agree that it's most of them but anyway.

Many boys don't have good men in their lives. They don't learn how to be good men.

So is that not up to the women around them to teach them how to be good men?

My husband taught our daughter how to be a good woman, as much as I taught my son how to be a good man.

Ideally all fathers would be around and all would be good role models for their children but we can only start from where we are. So why can't women start making changes?

I was on a bis a few years ago with my daughter (she was about 16). A group of young boys got on about 13 yrs old. I don't think they knew it was my daughter.

They started to make comments about her breasts and I watched her getting more and more embarrassed so I stood up and challenged them. Asked them why they were saying what they were saying, did they think it was ok, would it be ok for someone to talk about their mum like that. Should I have left it to a man to do that then? Because why was it my job as a woman?

There were no men on the bus by the way. Only us.

So that decent, good men (and there are lots) end up feeling like there's no point? That no matter what they say or do or how they act they are to blame

No. because the good, decent, men I know, know exactly who and what I'm on about.

They started to make comments about her breasts and I watched her getting more and more embarrassed so I stood up and challenged them. Asked them why they were saying what they were saying, did they think it was ok, would it be ok for someone to talk about their mum like that. Should I have left it to a man to do that then? Because why was it my job as a woman?

That’s awful, it should never have happened. If they had been taught decent and proper attitudes and behaviours in the first place, you wouldn’t have had to step in.

Thus bringing us back to teaching our sons how to behave appropriately.

Can you see that male privilege is what allowed them to think their behaviour was acceptable?