To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

Yet we expect men to do what we aren't willing to do

WE don’t, you apparently do since you’re of the opinion (on the FWR board) that there isn’t any kind of movement where women are actively campaigning against it?

I'll ask the question again though, if most men are 'good' and 'nice' and 'fair' including those with the power and money to change things for the better, why aren't they?

Because the vast majority with power and money aren’t.

Or they’re at best complacent and happy with the status quo.

I'll ask the question again though, if most men are 'good' and 'nice' and 'fair' including those with the power and money to change things for the better, why aren't they?

I don't know.

Is it because in reality only a few men do actually hold the money and the power and maybe they aren't the nice, fair or good men?

Op I have a question for you. You seem very proud of your dd’s achievements and her time in scouts, and her warehouse job in a leadership position. This sounds to me as though you have been inculcated yourself to believe that social traits coded ‘masculine’ are valued and valuable, and that your dd has successfully negotiated the ‘masculine’ by fighting to prove herself in masculine environments. (I’m not knocking that. I’m 5’2” and have spent my life in male dominated environments proving myself to be both intellectually and physically capable of ‘masculine’ achievements). I can guarantee though, that in scouts ONLY those traits desired as masculine were promoted, taught, and tested.
The youth were not given the opportunity to explore and discover any activities or traits that have been socially coded as ‘feminine’.

You aren’t going to get boys and men entering the caring professions when both men (and women like you - and me) play into valuing the ‘masculine’ over the feminine.
I want to prove myself capable of beating male soldiers in a timed run (because fuck yeah. And also because I loathe when they dismiss me as a stupid little girl) but I REALLY want scouts to start promoting a broader range of skills and activities.

Women succeeding at ‘men’s’ stuff is half of the battle, but as a society we have to change that the ‘masculine’ is the point to which we aspire.
Men need to want to nurse. To care.
It’s not ‘equality’ when a woman succeeds in a man’s work against all odds. It’s buying into that men’s stuff is inherently of more cultural value.
You do it. I do it.
Men are still setting the rules and the feisty women are trying to prove they can do it.
We need to change the rules.

Quite simply Arthuritis the men who have the power, money and ability to change things are not listening to the women who are asking for change. In fact more than not listening they are actively stopping the women from achieving that change. The women do not have an equal share of either the power or the money to be any kind of meaningful threat.

Your question regarding women supporting those who speak out is ironic after the discussion on here earlier about rape.

@Mamaryllis

Don't we also need to celebrate that girls can be good at feminine things to? That that is ok?

So that both girls and boys can enjoy everything and that to succeed at something is to succeed?

Your question regarding women supporting those who speak out is ironic after the discussion on here earlier about rape.

Sorry. You've lost me.

What did I say that is ironic?

Oh my question - given that you and I both approve girls competing to prove themselves in masculine coded skills, do you not believe that men have a responsibility to change the social structures? To value other skill sets? To encourage boys and men away from strength and power? To change what ‘masculinity’ is? To remove the toxicity?

Should women have to do that? We’re already playing along by the rules. Is it our job to fix masculinity? We’ve been trying. I’m not sure that berating the women who have been trying is the solution.

Women, if you don't like the way things are you need to speak out more. You can't expect men to change, you need to force the change. You need to change your behaviour, you need to do things to ensure that men change for you.

God, all women want to do is bring down men. They don't want equality, they want to be better than men. Poor men, all they are doing is plodding along getting on with things the way they have always been, and all these feminists want to do is change it all around.

Should women have to do that? We’re already playing along by the rules. Is it our job to fix masculinity? We’ve been trying. I’m not sure that berating the women who have been trying is the solution.

Absolutely

Elephantinacravat also spot on!

Yes I do think that men need to change.

I also think that there are lots of women who deride other women for being feminine, almost it's a weakness, or women who bully other women for being too masculine (like the PP whose daughter was called a lesbian).

Isn't there are saying "Be the change you want to see" or something?

Mamaryllis. I am proud of her achievements in a masculine environment but I am also proud she bakes wonderful cakes and took her baking skills to explorers and had them all baking and cake decorating I am also proud that she is a married woman and desperately trying for a baby and when that happens will most likely be a SAHM I am just very very proud of my kids and I think that they are great people, they could have been like that without mine and DH input. But I like to think we did that for them, and them watching how we treat each other helped that.

Isn't there are saying "Be the change you want to see" or something?

Says the women who has spent an entire thread belittling women trying to effect change!

But women have a big part in raising boys.

Many would argue that they do more than their fair share when it comes to raising children.

So we have no influence in how our sons turn out then?

Totally arthuritus. We should be. That’s my point. By doing masculine and competing in masculine opportunities and celebrating a woman’s success in a masculine field, both the op and I are absolutely complicit in upholding that the masculine us the most desirable.
The difference is, I recognize it. In my youth groups we explore a lot of peer expectations and the girls are encouraged to find their own path, whatever it is. We offer pretty much everything. Including the ‘male’ stuff but lots if stuff that boys don’t touch with a barge pole. The girls are encouraged to try it all and we don’t place a higher value on different things. Find out who you are. Live it.
(My point about my personal situation was to recognize that I’m aware of my socialization. And that women are seen as weaker. And I can both want to challenge that view, and recognize that by competing by the male rules I am also valuing them myself.)

Several women have told you how we raise our sons.

You just choose to ignore it.

Do you practice what you preach? Do you teach your son to respect women, do you teach him he is equal to and not superior?
Do you praise him for traditionally female things he does? Do you challenge male dominance with him? Do you teach him that consent to engage with someone is needed?

Arthuritis Is it because in reality only a few men do actually hold the money and the power and maybe they aren't the nice, fair or good men?

Really? You think there are only a few men who actually hold the money and power? You don't think there is a complete imbalance? In just the two areas we have spoken about, politics and the entertainment industry, are absolutely loaded with men at the top who hold all the power and money.

Anytime women speak out to make changes, to try to balance things, make them fairer there are cries of "What about the men? All you Feminazis hate men." This thread title alone is an example of that stating that womens rights are bad for men.

It’s (as usual) women that are doing all the work to promote equality. But without male involvement, it all goes for a ball of chalk, because it’s still the masculine that is prized and the men who set the rules.
Like the op’s dd. I doubt that her dh is going to take six months paternity leave, that she won’t have her warehouse career unaffected by child rearing, that her dh won’t be one taking time off work to look after sick kids. Etc etc.
You can have laws that allow equality. But until men want it and value child-rearing as much as they value their job, social change isn’t exactly racing away.

Says the women who has spent an entire thread belittling women trying to effect change!

No I haven't.

I've been trying to point out that not everything is the fault of men.

That not every man is a rapist in training.
That some men are actually decent individuals.

That some vulnerable men get treated badly by women.

That not all women, just by virtue of the fact that they are women are decent human beings.

But that makes me a misogynist apparently.

Well, crack on. Good luck to those of you
that have sons. I hope they never come across some of the women that are on here.

Jesus wept you’ll never understand will you? Society has done quite the job on you. How very sad.

RedDogsBeg
The title is Do you think women’s right are bad for Women not men.

Sorry that should read "bad for women".

Do you practice what you preach? Do you teach your son to respect women, do you teach him he is equal to and not superior?
Do you praise him for traditionally female things he does? Do you challenge male dominance with him? Do you teach him that consent to engage with someone is needed?
Yes I do. My son is a great man. He has a strong sense of fair play and will always stand up for others. My husband and I have raised him to respect everyone. Though apparently according to someone here I have no way of knowing that he isn't a rapist.

In just the same way as we have raised our daughter to respect everyone. She too is an amazing person.

Is it because in reality only a few men do actually hold the money and the power and maybe they aren't the nice, fair or good men?

Many would argue that they do more than their fair share when it comes to raising children.

So, why are those legions of nice, fair or good men not picking up their fair share of raising children and contributing at home?

One of the last bastions where equality hasn't been reached is at home, with consequences in the work place as well.

I've been trying to point out that not everything is the fault of men.

Nobody says it is.
But what you have been doing is othering, to remove responsibility from men, placing it firmly on women instead.