To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

I just don't think it's popular to suggest that women are also part of the problem.

Only when women are misogynist.

It's much easier to just blame men for everything and then say it's down to men to solve it because they caused it.

As I wrote before, you've been living in lala land if you think women have just been sitting waiting for men to give them rights. Women have been fighting their corner. Fighting very hard. Including with their lives.

But men also have to contribute to the solution. Because it's not us against them. Because both sexes benefit from equality.

Because when women are victims, it's not their responsibility not to be victims. It's the entire society who must place blame firmly with the aggressors. And the entire society must include men too. Not just women fighting their corner.

Otherwise what is the alternative? Men carry on and women stand at the side wringing their hands and extolling " oh if only men were different"?

I’ve tried very hard to engage with you, without calling you a misogynist. That statement, I’m afraid, is as misogynistic as I’ve heard.

Why are you belittling the women who do bother to speak out against misogyny as “hand wringing”?

Because we don’t matter to you, or to the men who dislike women having a voice.

I don’t think you’re a man. I do think you are a woman happy with the status quo who belittles women who aren’t.

I find that very sad indeed.

is It considered to be for the women's safety on the motorbikes? I spose it's possible a group of female riders might feel at risk from car drivers who take against women on motorbikes.

In full leathers and a helmet I defy anyone to say who is male or female!

@butterflysugarbaby

I agree with a lot of posters on this thread, that you are a massive misogynist who thinks very little of women's rights.

Shame on you.

But no shame on you for name calling and belittling though no? That's not misogynistic in any way. I guess you're being supportive and inclusive are you?

But no shame on you for name calling and belittling though no? That's not misogynistic in any way. I guess you're being supportive and inclusive are you?

Your last statement reduced an entire movement of women seeking to prevent the oppression of women by men to hand wringing whiners.

As I said, I’ve tried to engage in a meaningful way, half of it has been ignored.

So what exactly is it you want? Because for the life of me I cannot work it out.

It's not misogynistic to say someone is a misogynist. It's also not belittling. It's an observation from what you posted.

Also, I haven’t called you names. I’ve stated that you are being misogynistic, which is factual. No name calling at all. Unlike you I have to say.

Why are you belittling the women who do bother to speak out against misogyny as “hand wringing”?
Because I'm saying the exact opposite.

I'm saying why don't women speak out?

That if women don't speak out by changing their behaviour, by refusing to do what men tell them then nothing is going to change.

If we just talk to each other and say how awful things are what will change?

It's only by doing it differently, by women in power changing things that change will happen.

If we just talk to each other and say how awful things are what will change?

Are you saying that all this time, women have just been chatting in groups and that all advances in equality have been brought up by men's good grace and good will?

@YeTalkShiteHen

Because you misread what I posted in the same way that you said you and your husband jointly raise your son to belittle women or whatever it was that you agreed with.

You have misread what I said.

Arthuritis women have been trying to change those attitudes and the behaviour of the males with power within that industry. It is a notoriously difficult industry with the decks heavily loaded against women and their concerns or efforts to change it are easily dismissed.

Look how long it has taken for women to be just about heard within Hollywood, look how long people have been complaining about that industry and voicing dissatisfaction with it, look at how the women were punished for daring to raise the subject, look how women who wrote about it were treated.

It comes back to what I said earlier men and especially men in power have a responsibility to change their views and attitudes towards women. Doing so will benefit everyone - male and female.

I'm saying why don't women speak out?

We do.

That if women don't speak out by changing their behaviour, by refusing to do what men tell them then nothing is going to change.

That again removes all the responsibility from men and reduces it to the fault of women. Why not tell men not to tell women what to do?

If we just talk to each other and say how awful things are what will change?

We don’t, but look at any movement which has spoken out against powerful men. It doesn’t take long for them to be discredited, or threatened, or smeared does it?

Harvey Weinstein?

It's only by doing it differently, by women in power changing things that change will happen

No, it’s by changing the mindset of toxic masculinity, among men in positions of power.

“just don't think it's popular to suggest that women are also part of the problem”

Of course some women are part of the problem. When feminists say this on Mumsnet they get pilloried!

You have misread what I said.

Once, which I apologised for.

You haven’t bothered answering most of my questions.

And as for misreading, he’s not my husband I am not married. That matters to me.

Are you saying that all this time, women have just been chatting in groups and that all advances in equality have been brought up by men's good grace and good will?
No. I was talking about the music industry where a good many young women still trade on their looks rather than their talent.

With regards to this industry I was saying wouldn't it make a big difference to women if we stopped seeing this and started fully clothed women on stage, showcasing their talent.

Or do you disagree?

Once, which I apologised for.
Not just once.

The statement above about the hand wringing where you said I was misogynistic.

You misunderstood entirely what I was saying.

I'm saying why don't women speak out?

You think women don't speak out?

And look what happens to women who do speak out. Where does it get them a lot of the time?

I didn’t, I really didn’t.

Having read back all of your posts I think your own misunderstanding of the basic issues is what is the problem.

I have tried to engage but cannot when you wilfully misunderstand even the most basic and fundamental principles of feminism.

You used a belittling and demeaning analogy to describe a very important, very much needed and very powerful movement.

Minimising and dismissing are classic male dominating techniques.

You want to talk about women who are part of the problem? Stop using those techniques!

That again removes all the responsibility from men and reduces it to the fault of women. Why not tell men not to tell women what to do?

I do think that men need to change the way that they are behaving.

But if women wait around for that change to happen before they start behaving differently then change will never happen.

How about if women started behaving differently first and then that change forced men to behave differently?

Why do we have to wait around for men? Why can't we make our own change?

And look what happens to women who do speak out. Where does it get them a lot of the time?

And are other women part of that problem? Yes they are.

Do other women support the women that speak out? No not all of the time.

Yet we expect men to do what we aren't willing to do

No, it’s by changing the mindset of toxic masculinity, among men in positions of power. Amen to that YeTalkShiteHen

I'll ask the question again though, if most men are 'good' and 'nice' and 'fair' including those with the power and money to change things for the better, why aren't they?

@Lweji

And calling me a man because my views don't align with what you think a female's views are is what?

Why do we have to wait around for men? Why can't we make our own change?

We are trying to 'make our own change'. And then threads get started on MN about how awful the feminists are making it for the poor menz.