To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

*Apparently all men are abusive bastards and all men subjugate women.

No woman, no matter how educated or socially privileged, holds an advantage in life over a man.

Women are weak, timid, victimised, pathetic little creatures at the mercy of the patriarchy*

Nobody is saying that there are instances of women being privileged or holding an advantage. That is despite the patriarchy.

It is tiresome that acknowledging white men are the most privileged group is conflated with man-hating.

We are all responsible for acknowledging the privileges that are confered on us.

I think it is that segregation they is making it ok to feel unable to perform in front of the opposite sex

Some people want sex-segregated spaces. Some don’t. It is absolutely correct that everyone has the chance to access the space they require.

"Boys should be able to feel comfortable to read in front of girls and women should be able to try new things in front of men."
Of course they should but they don't. What do we do about that?

Yes, but being kind doesn't mean being a doormat and accepting unfairness:

I'd tell the swimming staff to close the men's area for a disabled boy
I'd expect the men to agree to that, just as I'd happily agree to closing the women's area for a disabled girl

BigChocFrenzy thanks!

Why do lots of female pop stars and actors continue to perpetuate the sex sells message? I guess because they value personal gain over standing up for women everywhere.

Don't you think this is something to do with the fact that pretty much all of the powerful people in these industries are men?

Re: the swimming pool scenario I am a little puzzled why it would be the women's changing room that would close so that this young man could be assisted to get changed rather than the mens. Perhaps you could explain it to me?

"

This doesn't fit the downtrodden narrative of modern day ''feminism'.

Apparently all men are abusive bastards and all men subjugate women.

No woman, no matter how educated or socially privileged, holds an advantage in life over a man.

Women are weak, timid, victimised, pathetic little creatures at the mercy of the patriarchy."

You do know that nobody on this thread has said anything of the sort, don't you?

Yes, put more effort into teaching literacy to boys,

It's not just literacy though.

White working class boys underperform in every subject.

They don't suddenly improve at GCSE. In fact by then many have totally disengaged from education.

If being a feminist means that you can never show kindness then I don't want to be one

It doesn’t, or it shouldn’t at least.

I don’t agree with everything that everyone who says she’s a feminist says. As I’m sure they don’t agree with everything I say.

What I do believe in, very strongly, is that women, as a group, are inevitably the group expected to make allowances and sacrifices and that this is accepted as standard and that it is very very wrong.

I’m not unwilling to compromise, at all. I’m unwilling to be the only one to compromise on anything because I’m female.

I haven't read the whole thread tbh but I think it's overboard. One of my ds friends is always going on about feminists and how he hates them. At school almost every lesson this term is focussing on gender which isn't going to be beneficial to his education. Women have lost out on simple things my ds doesn't see why it's a nice thing to hold open a door for a woman and never will.
At his and my dds school the girls are encouraged to forge ahead with being strong and confident women but the boys aren't encouraged in the same way. In their aim to make things equal they have tipped the balance the other way. The girls also have more after school sports clubs than the boys.

"If being a feminist means that you can never show kindness then I don't want to be one."

Of course kindness is important. However, there is along history of women being expected to bout themselves second in the name of kindness.... I don't quite understand the swimming pool changing room situation. If it was a boy who needed privacy, why wasn't the men's changing room the one to close so that his mother could go in to help him?

Bully for you op if you want to 'stand up for yourself in front of men' but a vast majority of women just want to go out on their bikes without having to prove anything to anyone. The fact that you feel like you have to stand up to people to just participate in your hobby tells me that a women's group is needed. I doubt the men feel as tho they need to stand up to anyone.... And if they do it must be a pretty bullying environment :-(

"In their aim to make things equal they have tipped the balance the other way" In what way?

Arthuritis in some instances I would say that yes female Prime Ministers and Home Secretaries are prevented from doing more for women, female MPs who talk about specific female issues are subject to intense criticism and disparaging attacks by the media and their own colleagues. Female MPs/Prime Ministers/Home Secretaries face far more vicious verbal attacks and undermining of their abilities than their male equivalents, plus the "it's because she is a woman" line is inevitably trotted out at some point.

In view of the above it is unsurprising that some trade off their own career against helping women more, I don't agree with them when they do it (and they do) but I can see why they do.

The 'sex sells' message for female pop stars - that industry is run by men, they have all the power, some women pop stars are now challenging the stereotypes but they have to get into a position financially and popularly to do so. Sinead O'Connor pointed out the imbalance when she wrote to Miley Cyrus and received nothing but vitriol in return. I think it will change, slowly, in light of the furore surrounding Hollywood but the power structures at the top need to change and become more balanced and the men will fight that every step of the way.

Re: the swimming pool scenario I am a little puzzled why it would be the women's changing room that would close so that this young man could be assisted to get changed rather than the mens. Perhaps you could explain it to me?

As far as I was concerned it didn't have to be the women's changing room.

That is where the boy, his mum and his sister were when the OP walked in. The OP then got changed but felt uncomfortable that the boy might have been looking at her.

We never really got more info so why did the mum use the female changing room etc.

Maybe the mum (a woman) chose it because she is female?

No idea why. But when I proposed that one room, male or female, be closed for this family, it very quickly became that the female room should never ever be used for a man whilst others said that the mum and sister shouldn't have to change in the mens.

Never really got to a dad changing his daughter - logic dictates that this would be in the female changing room but some opinions appeared to be that men never should be allowed in the womens changing rooms.

Clearly there are some more reasonable posters on here than were present the other night.

Why should boys be left to continue falling behind in literacy, if separate reading classes for boys might help them ?
Ditto girls in science

iirc, there were studies showing segregated schools helped girls in these subjects, although I kinow this infuriates many on MN, including some feminists
< ducks down >
I went to a girls' grammar and I always felt I benefited from that, although other girls might not have - give parents a choice

People before ideology
It is so difficult to overcome disadvantages of an inadequate school education - unless you are well-off to start with

A serious disadvantage is being very poor - I found this tougher getting a start in life than being a woman or BME
Once I got my first job, being a BME woman became significant
and over the last 10 years, becoming significantly visually & hearing disabled has become dominant

In reference to female politicians, did anyone see the headline when May and Sturgeon met talking about their shoes?

I mean when was the last time we heard what shop any other politicians got their shoes from?

I am, however, horrified that the rape clause in TC got through with women involved. Utterly horrific.

I was on the shower thread and just want to say it did not play out the way it has been posted here. The suggestion to close the mens was met with nearly unanimous aggreement. Was was the problem was a 16 yo male being in the womens with no announcement or the consent from the women using the facility.

As for the worm that turned. I grew up in a very sexist house hold and I hated that the whole of that sketch was 'those poor men' when it was actually a not so exaggerated version of the majority of women's reality at the time. I saw that as an 8/10 year old. And still bloody is. I can't believe the secist, racist and homophobic shit I sat through on TV as a child in the 80s. Glad my kids only watch gumball and teen titans!

@RedDogsBeg

But then any woman that sells out other women is perpetuating the problem surely?

Just as men as a class are responsible for preventing rape surely women as a class are responsible for challenging this perception of women being nothing more than a pair of boobs and a pretty face?

Why doesnt the prime minister for example stand up now and take a stance?

The suggestion to close the mens was met with nearly unanimous aggreement.

Yes it was. Nearly unanimous agreement.

That's what I've tried to explain.

Some people argued that it wasn't right for the mum and sister to change in the men's changing room. I don't know why.

I was in full agreement with them going into the closed mens room.

What I didn't agree with was the attitude of him having to not go swimming at all.

What I didn't agree with was the attitude of him having to not go swimming at all

Sadly that kind of disablist bullshit is all too familiar.

"Why doesnt the prime minister for example stand up now and take a stance?"

Simple. Because she's not a feminist.

Arthuritis the answer to your question comes back again to the power imbalance. Women are not on equal parity with men in any sphere let alone representation in politics and any attempt to redress the balance is shot down in flames - look at the horror over All Women Shortlists for example.

Women as a class are challenging the perception of women being nothing more than a pair of boobs and a pretty face and look at the reaction to those who do.

Why should 'we' be encouraging more young women into subjects like Engineering ?

This is a male dominated area because it requires strong logical thinking, mathematical and physical science skills. It also often involves being outdoors in all sorts of weather conditions.

I notice the same 'feminists' pushing the above 'STEM' line don't seem too worried about the gender imbalance in areas like nursing.

Surely those in favour of 'equality' would want to attract hordes of working class young men into the nursing profession in order to 'even up the numbers' ?

No wonder so few women identify as feminists these days.