To think women’s rights are actually bad for women

[crazydoglady6867]

I am sure I will get shot down for this but here goes:

I really think that women wanting and largely getting EQUALITY is the best thing that is happening in modern times. What I have an issue with is women wanting to be better than men, wanting more rights and with girls/women only groups sports events etc we are actually just segregating ourselves and making men feel ostracised in some situations which is making them feel they need to gain back this “power” they feel they should have over women.
I am in a bike group who have a ladies section and they are just recently going a bit OTT over the women riders and making them more inclusive than the men really, they have special ride outs for them but men are not allowed to have a male only one. Etc etc...

You can see where I am going with this, and I am happy to change my mind in how I feel if posters come up with a reasonable debate into why I am wrong here.

I want to be thought of as equal to my male counterparts I don’t feel I need to have special running races they can’t run in or special groups my son can’t join or special days to celebrate my gender.

I remember a sketch in the 70’s on the Two Ronnies with Diana Dors in it called “the worm has turned” and thinking yeah as if that will ever happen, well people I can honestly say I am getting a bit worried for our men.

I know MN has a good proportion of man haters but you can’t all be like that, am I really the only one who feels like this.

“ I feel that being singled out makes us look like vulnerable needy people not equal human beings.”

So you never think it’s a good idea to let women have a go at things women don’t usually do without men present?

I assume you are opposed to my all boy book group as well?

Goodness me no, but we are getting there, it is the segregation that I think is holding us back, how many times do I have to say this, I feel that being singled out makes us look like vulnerable needy people not equal human beings

But you’re STILL ascribing your feelings to other women. If you don’t need an all female space, that’s great. Some women do and therefore they should have that opportunity.

Goodness me no, but we are getting there

I really don’t think we are.

@BigChocFrenzy
I do agree with you.

I'm not sure why others disagreed with the mum and sister changing in the closed male changing room.

The answer became a resounding " well the boy needs to go to another pool" though which I found hateful.

The answer became a resounding " well the boy needs to go to another pool" though which I found hateful

Absolutely agree with that.

I'm not sure why others disagreed with the mum and sister changing in the closed male changing room

No idea either.

I agree that it was hateful I mean.

An organisation wanting to broaden its membership,
e.g. to receive more membership subs

may encourage separate sessions for women
but discourage sessions for men only, because they already have most of the likely men from their cathcment area.

Ditto, a knitting or cookery group might encourage classes for boys & men

A gym might get the feedback from prospective members, or those who drop out, that some women want women-only sessions
They want more members, so they would balance whether they would overall gain or lose by it

Commercial decisions often, but sometimes just to change a very skewed membership, if that is against their ethos

Arthuritis

To go back to this, which is questions from some posters and your responses:

How about all the men get together and think 'you know what, we rape and abuse women so frequently that there are bound to be a tiny amount of false allegations so maybe if we stop raping and abusing so much, that might not happen'.

Because my father, son, husband, uncles aren't rapists and are not responsible for what other men do unless they see it or hear views that are against women. In that case they do need to stand up against it.

But they should not be paying the cost for some unknown man's crime. How can you even think that is rational?

Men as a class could stop it all in a second
How?

Any man that I know doesn't agree with mistreating women (or mistreating anyone in fact). They don't put women down when they speak, they don't belittle them, they certainly don't condone rape.

How do they, as a class, stop this?

The Law Makers, Law Dispensers, Policy Makers, Opinion Formers and Spreaders are and always have been overwhelmingly MALE.

Parliament was 100% MALE until a law passed in 1918 to allow females to stand as MPs.

Women were granted the right to vote only 100 years ago and even then there were limitations on which women were the right kind of women to vote.

For many hundreds of years men have been responsible for setting and enacting laws, if, as you say, the majority of them are against violence particularly towards women and do not condone rape why have they not brought in laws to reflect this, why have they not in all these years managed to effect a culture change to reflect the views of the men like those you know whom they serve? What is taking them so long?

Men as a class have had every opportunity to stop this what is the reason the haven't? Could it be because they don't want to?

The gender of the person changing dictates which changing room should be used.

I didn't just mean in the swimming pool instance, sorry didn't explain myself.

I mean in any situation. I get the impression that for some people it will always just boil down to male and female.

So in many instances a woman will be at a disadvantage to a man.

But not in all.

In some cases the woman will have the advantage.

Yet some people will argue that even when the woman has the advantage she is still disadvantaged by men as a class and therefore needs special treatment.

I want to be able to stand up for myself in front of men and be heard not put in a room with other women to save me from something.

You still can but if they were to provide the men only groups you feel men should have a right to, then you’re fears would really be realised.

No one is stopping you from going into mixed or predominantly male groups but what they are saying is that some (obviously not you) women would find those groups a barrier. Just because you haven’t been in male dominated environments that intimidated you, doesn’t mean other women haven’t.

The same principle is applied to the men only over 60’s cook club in our local neighbourhood centre. There was a demand for classes that didn’t have women because some men felt intimidated by the generally more experienced women in their age group. The clubs have flourished and because of demand, they lowered the age limit and created more groups. Some of the pioneers of the men only clubs are now in mixed groups because being in groups with the ‘more experienced’ is no longer a barrier but an attraction.

I hear what you’re saying OP but it’s overly simplistic and you are confusing equally and equity. Equality aims to promote fairness, but it can only work if everyone starts from the same place and needs the same support.

Are you really ok with saying to some women who may have had unpleasant experiences or intimidated in male dominated environments to stop being feeling that way because your experience is different? Are you happy to go back to the times when there were significantly less women then the current minority, in say motorcycle clubs?

I find it amusing that you are more worried about the female only groups than your husband, who not only doesn’t see the threat to men as you do but has probably a greater appreciation as why the femaile only groups exist in the first place.

“I guess that my issue is that in talking about "men" we assume that ALL men are the same ie benefit from male privileges, control resources, are strong, potentially a threat to women etc”

We’re back to the old “class analysis” thing again, aren’t we? All men do benefit from male privilege. Individual men may have less privilege than individual women, but as a class men have more privilege than men as a class. An individual man is not necessarily a threat to an individual woman, but considering that men commit more than 90% of violent crime, men as a class are a threat to women as a class. And to men as a class!

So in many instances a woman will be at a disadvantage to a man

I’d say most.

But not in all

You’re right. Not all, but the vast majority.

In some cases the woman will have the advantage

Rarely, but aye I agree.

What it all boils down to, is that whether it’s women’s rights or disablity rights, it’s never, ever the men expected to make adjustments or sacrifice.

I think that’s the crux of the problem.

To say that women have some instances of advantage is true, but the implication is that we have a little and should shut up and be happy with that.

Which isn’t equality.

Re the swimming pool situ again if I had been there and the pool attendant had said “look, there’s a mum in there with a young man with special needs, we’re going to close the area for 10 mins so he can change, is that OK” I’d have had no problem at all. That’s a different situation to going in to get changed and finding a male there in a space which you expect to be for females only and be expected to suck it up.

yatalkshitehen I’m so sorry for the loss of your friend.

Internalised misogyny. Keeping the patriarchy going since 6000 bc (probably).

All the posts I’ve read on here about men falsely accused of rape read the same. I don’t believe them. Occasionally one may be real and other people read it and regurgitate it so perhaps that’s why they are all so similar. It never seems to be outwardly feminist posters who know a man falsely accused of rape and it’s ruined his life either. Funny that. If it’s so cut and dry and so common.

Re the swimming pool situ again if I had been there and the pool attendant had said “look, there’s a mum in there with a young man with special needs, we’re going to close the area for 10 mins so he can change, is that OK” I’d have had no problem at all. That’s a different situation to going in to get changed and finding a male there in a space which you expect to be for females only and be expected to suck it up

Absolutely.

"If you look at performance data in schools the group underperforming the most are white working class boys. Not girls, not BME groups'

This doesn't fit the downtrodden narrative of modern day ''feminism'.

Apparently all men are abusive bastards and all men subjugate women.

No woman, no matter how educated or socially privileged, holds an advantage in life over a man.

Women are weak, timid, victimised, pathetic little creatures at the mercy of the patriarchy.

Men as a class have had every opportunity to stop this what is the reason the haven't? Could it be because they don't want to?

I honestly don't know why.

I don't think it's because the majority of men think that rape is a good thing though.

Why do female home secretaries (or female prime ministers) not do more for women? Are they prevented from doing so? Are the valuing their own political career over changing things for women everywhere? If so are they part of the problem?

Why do lots of female pop stars and actors continue to perpetuate the sex sells message? I guess because they value personal gain over standing up for women everywhere.

GoldenWonderwall thank you. I know a man falsely accused of sexual offences against children. He was convicted and served time.

I also know the woman who made the allegations, she freely admits to anyone who will listen that she did it for compensation money, and in fact, tried to give him some of it.

She is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the norm thankfully.

BertrandRussell

No, I don’t think it is helping either gender in your post there.

Boys should be able to feel comfortable to read in front of girls and women should be able to try new things in front of men.

I think it is that segregation they is making it ok to feel unable to perform in front of the opposite sex.

If from an early age girls and boys are taught that we live and work and play together as equals as in no Girl Guides etc etc then we will get there eventually, probably not in my life time but it will happen if we make it happen.

I and all of my female ancestors have lived in a male dominated misogynistic society. Individual men are sometimes wonderful and beloved and feminist. Society isn’t and has never been for women. I’m not at all worried about lack of men only bike clubs. I am worried that we still don’t have equal pay for equal work, equal opportunity for equal skill. I work in a very male dominated, created and lead profession. I would have hoped we could be in a place where we would no longer need women’s spaces and organisations but we simply aren’t. I think it an outrage we have (and need) women onlynshortlists etc in order to get any further progress in some areas. I am not a man hater at all. I weep that my daughters won’t be in very much more of an equal society than my mother was or than I am. Then I get angry about it and continue to fight for women’s rights wherever they are threatened or denied fully.

The issues of literacy and STEM subjects are quite separate though:

Yes, put more effort into teaching literacy to boys, or changing the approach for them, since this area seem to be currently failing them more than it fails girls.

However, once kids progress to choosing O and A levels (or today's successors) then a clear gulf appears, mainly social pressure, regarding STEM subjects
so far fewer girls and women go into these fields

I'm 62 with a STEM PhD and every uni class (mid-70s onwards) was 95% men;
afterwards throughout my career, every job, every conference in my scientific field has had about 98% men even now

What’s STEM? Aye I know it’s a stupid question, but if I don’t ask I won’t find out.

There are no stupid questions

STEM = (science technology engineering maths)

Re the swimming pool situ again if I had been there and the pool attendant had said “look, there’s a mum in there with a young man with special needs, we’re going to close the area for 10 mins so he can change, is that OK” I’d have had no problem at all.

I would have hoped that most decent people would do the same.

But when a poster suggested that many posters shouted them down and said that in no way was that acceptable.

That a woman only safe space should never be used for a man. That women should never be asked to make way for a man, no matter what the situation.

It was that attitude that made it so uncomfortable for me.

That yes safe spaces for women are imperative. But that why does that mean we have to be so downright nasty about it? Especially when showing some kindness would have not only helped the boy but also his mum, who is a woman.

If being a feminist means that you can never show kindness then I don't want to be one.

No woman, no matter how educated or socially privileged, holds an advantage in life over a man.

That’s nonsense. I know only too well the advantages I have in life over many men.

None of that changes the fact that Male privilege exists, when looking at men as a class.