Thanks to many on Mumsnet, and MNHQ

[ArbitersCarbiters]

For showing your true colours.

I’ve been a member of Mumsnet on and off for almost 10 years. It holds a special place in my heart - it got me through the long nights with my DC, bumps in my career, the breakdown of my marriage and helping me finally confront the grief at becoming an orphan far too young. I gradually stopped posting on here precisely because I began to see how hostile a place it could be (and was) for women of colour, especially those who called out micro-aggressions and thinly-veiled racist/dehumanising behaviour.

I wish MNHQ had let my (now deleted) thread stand as it was the perfect example of what so many black women have to face everyday (albeit hidden behind a sheer facade of disingenuous naivety and inclusivity).

Instead, it was deleted. The irony of that is that when people claim so many posters on here are and can be hostile to black women and our experiences, the evidence of that hostility is lost forever, and so those same posters and others can claim that it never existed in the first place.

Perhaps seeing the vitriol in writing might help people understand the reality (and denial) of our day-to-day experiences.

Or not.

And right now, I’m verging towards not.

As you were 🤷🏾‍♀️

I agree locking the thread with its deletions and leaving it to stand is probably best.

This happens on disability threads, the same on some FWR threads. Its too easy for bigots to derail a thread to the point it gets deleted knowing their presence on the thread gets deleted at the same time.

I feel quite offended by people saying I don’t accept my “white privilege”

Yes because this is all about you isn't it?

I feel quite offended by people saying I don’t accept my “white privilege”

Are you often offended by people stating facts?

In my experience, people who are offended by the term White Privilege don't actually understand the concept of it and would rather continue to froth than educate themselves.
White privilege doesn't equate to "you're racist".

OP, of course I'm going to agree with you! I didn't see the original thread but I've had my own experiences.

My toddler son had a full size afro when we went to a good friend's wedding (mostly white guests). Omg, her guests and his hair! Honestly, I didn't know how to feel or what to do. It kept happening throughout the night. These people were mostly good people (I assume) who saw something that intrigued them, and they wanted to touch. They didn't ask, they often just touched it. They did interact with him a bit, so it wasn't 'touch n Go', and were very nice and friendly otherwise. My son didn't appreciate the hair touching at all. He would show his cross face and start running, or retract and hold onto my leg. These people were guests, important enough for my friend to invite to a small-medium size wedding. Since I had no intention of creating a scene I just decided to hold my tongue and just smile along with it. It was awful to see people doing something you know your child doesn't enjoy, but you have a niggling feeling that you're perhaps being the unreasonable one because they're all nice people otherwise. So you often smile through it. Maybe I should call it out, regardless?

Honestly, MN and black issues depress me.

In my experience, people who are offended by the term White Privilege don't actually understand the concept of it

I wonder if they understand the concept of Male Privilege?

White privilege doesn't equate to "you're racist"

Absolutely. All white people have white privilege, we’re not all racist.

Recognising that aspects of your life are easier because you’re white, or more accurately that you don’t face the same bullshit BAME people face on a daily basis is recognising white privilege.

White privilege doesn't equate to "you're racist".

But not accepting it, may. I suppose that was the offensive part.

It's kind of funny, though, how some people are offended by being called racist or not accepting their white privilege, but don't think a black person should be offended by other people thinking they're entitled to get a feel of their hair.

What would I call that?

What would I call that?

A navel gazing twat.

Recognising that aspects of your life are easier because you’re white, or more accurately that you don’t face the same bullshit BAME people face on a daily basis is recognising white privilege

I literally don't understand what about this offends people so much.

I literally don't understand what about this offends people so much

I think it’s an “I’m alright Jack, fuck everyone else” mentality. They don’t want to hear about the microaggressions and outright aggression BAME have to live with because it doesn’t suit their own agenda.

BAME people! Bloody typo.

I have been so shocked at the other thread, now that's been reinstated and I could read it, how many really don't understand why it's wrong.
I am also glad there are others who do understand.
I have had this my entire life, being mixed race. Never gets touched when I straighten it. People touch it, then say it's quite oily isn't it?! Now I have a Dd with the same hair, she has so many people touch it when it is natural I.e. not plaits, she however is 'white' for all intents and purposes (try working out what box to tick on ethnicity) as my husband is white and she is lightly tanned.

Recognising that aspects of your life are easier because you’re white, or more accurately that you don’t face the same bullshit BAME people face on a daily basis is recognising white privilege.

Absolutely.

My 12 year old has a grasp on his white privilege. It’s a bit cringey that so many grown adults don’t seem to.

I think the threads should be frozen so that the evidence remains. It's a pity. I'm white so different experiences (and on a different board) but I challenged misogyny and abuse and the was attacked and then the thread was taken down so the evidence was gone forever and all anybody recalled was a hideous bun fight, and they had that view ''six of one and half a dozen of the other'' so .............. I know what you mean, in as much as I ever could.

Oh glad to see the thread is going to be reinstated but frozen.

I've thought a lot about this since reading the first thread - is it not possible that everyone could be right? It could be a race issue or a boundary one? If black people say they get this a lot, no one else has a right to deny it. Likewise, because inappropriate touching happens to white people too, this indicates it's about something else too.

I watch the kids at my dd's primary school. They tend to constantly mess around with each other's hair. They haven't learnt yet that it is considered rude in our culture to touch people without permission and to invade another somrone's personal space. They are still at the stage where they touch whatever they find interesting (these are white kids touching the hair of other white kids, so not viewing their classmates as different).
Some people grow up and never develop appropriate sense of boundaries - these will be the pregnant belly touchers and the people who think it's alright to kiss stranger's babies and maybe touch a stranger's hair.
Otoh, it's also right to say that black people shouldn't be seen as 'other' in their own country and the fact that this happens a lot means that they are being treated as such.

So glad the original thread has been re-instated. I am white, and my hair gets complimented all the time, and no stranger has EVER touched it. It is 100% a racial issue.

I worked with an apprentice last year. He was 17 and had the most beautiful coiled afro I have ever seen in my life. Not once did I touch it. His (female) manager once fucking stroked it and patted him on the head afterwards. There is no way she would have done that if he was white - and yes, she got disciplined for it. Rightly so.

It's boundaries, but the main issue is that those people perceive boundaries around some people but not others.
I bet those two women in the thread wouldn't have felt the hair of any stranger they saw as being in power or having a higher status.

I wouldn't dream of touching anyone's hair whoever they were (except my kids' and dh). I find it most odd that people think it's ok.

One example of white privilege is being able to rub along for decades before realising that you have white privilege. I've lived in fairly white communities and had a very white career all my life, so have had fewer interactions with people of other ethnicities than I might have had in other circumstances. Therefore, while I would always in theory have said I wasn't consciously racist, I have never had to consider the sort of issues raised by the OP, either in my own experience or at direct secondhand. Therefore, given like all of us I have plenty of my own unrelated shit to deal with, I could easily have gone on for a few more decades without thinking about it much; not a luxury afforded to people who are not white. So I would like to thank the OP and all the other people who have taken the time to explain their experiences online for people like me to read. I know you shouldn't have to educate others, but OTOH, those of us who are accidentally rather than wilfully ignorant have been given the chance to think about these issues through your airing of them, which we couldn't have done if too privileged to be aware of them otherwise. And I, and I am sure many others, do at least now understand on one level how lucky we are. You may feel you are wasting your breath, but there are some people who are trying to listen, and who are grateful you have taken the time to speak. Thank you.

Spot on, moredogs, so that's two of us.

I'm glad the thread is back.
My will is good but sometimes I am stupid and ignorant and I appreciate the opportunity to be less so.

Same here.

I bet those two women in the thread wouldn't have felt the hair of any stranger they saw as being in power or having a higher status.

Exactly this. Would these people walk up to, I dunno, a white slim woman with long blonde hair and stroke it? You can bet your arse they wouldn't, no matter how much they wished.