Thanks to many on Mumsnet, and MNHQ

[ArbitersCarbiters]

For showing your true colours.

I’ve been a member of Mumsnet on and off for almost 10 years. It holds a special place in my heart - it got me through the long nights with my DC, bumps in my career, the breakdown of my marriage and helping me finally confront the grief at becoming an orphan far too young. I gradually stopped posting on here precisely because I began to see how hostile a place it could be (and was) for women of colour, especially those who called out micro-aggressions and thinly-veiled racist/dehumanising behaviour.

I wish MNHQ had let my (now deleted) thread stand as it was the perfect example of what so many black women have to face everyday (albeit hidden behind a sheer facade of disingenuous naivety and inclusivity).

Instead, it was deleted. The irony of that is that when people claim so many posters on here are and can be hostile to black women and our experiences, the evidence of that hostility is lost forever, and so those same posters and others can claim that it never existed in the first place.

Perhaps seeing the vitriol in writing might help people understand the reality (and denial) of our day-to-day experiences.

Or not.

And right now, I’m verging towards not.

As you were 🤷🏾‍♀️

I’m so sad your eloquent explanation was deleted, especially if it was because people decided to distract from the main issue you were raising.

There are some total pricks on here

I read the beginning of your thread, OP, and some of the responses were absolutely appalling. Anyone who bandies about ‘seeing racism where there isn’t any’ or ‘playing the race card’ should receive a small electric shock from their device to help with their underthinking.

You sound exhausting.

For anyone asking why the threat was deleted: please see Twinning and LongPinkBananas posts. It was knee deep in posts like that which were at best clueless and at worst aggressively attacking the OP and anyone else who can identify racism in any action more subtle than a KKK lynching.

OP, I asked MNHQ why the thread was deleted but haven't received a response.

There were people like Tangfastic demanding THIS THREAD MUST BE DELETED IT'S A CROCK OF SHIT

I fear that MNHQ gave into the racists on this occasion.

If only some of the people on this thread had posted last night, then the thread could have gone differently.

Thank you for theloing me to 'get over myself'

I have, perhaps, over-reacted, but then again I'm coming from the times when MNHQ was telling a group of posters that they were educating others, by rebutting disablism. Finally, they grasped that it wasn't fair and out role was not to educate others, and moved a number of topics to an 'opt in' basis, so we did not have to put up with that shit so much.

So sorry for causing offence ny using the exact language of MN when dealing with -isms. Yes, I think the site is going through the same debate again. I realise that others do not share my views or have the same experience or recognise the same jargon/quotations.

Really sorry op.

And sorry some of the racist idiots mn could do without have made their way on to this thread too.

Mumsnet aren't doing nearly enough to tackle racism on these boards. Repeat offenders should be banned.

Twinning - I lived in Asia and Australia. I have very, very pale skin and often had people touch my face. The difference is that in very many cultures worldwide paler skin is (for some reason) is seen as a desirable trait so while it remains weird and intrusive the cultural undertones are generally positive.

I can only speak from my own understanding as a white person. I think that in the, OPs situation, that as with me the touching was unwanted but the undertones were way less positive. The old lady might have been full of admiration but, due to how our culture viewed and continues to view black people the OP read it as derogatory. Its the OPs hair so we treat her feelings as paramount and don't touch her.

Scrumpy

Did you mean "you sound exhaustED"

Exhausted of experiencing micro aggressions of racism, exhausted of having to explain why some behaviour is RACIST and therefore NOT ok, exhaustED of having to defend yourself against completely clueless people living in their own bubble implying that you're a typical angry black woman

Please I would urge any of you who (even if you aren't posting on the thread, just lurking) think The OP is a non issue to read up on white privilege. Try 'Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race' by Reni Eddo-Lodge. It's a great place to start.

Ok so I didn't see the original post or the circumstances. If someone came up and started petting my hair at a bus stop it would be weird and unwelcome!

This has made me think my actions? If someone has nice hair I do comment. I work with a lady (so happens to be black) the other day I loved her hair - it's beautiful and I did want to touch it! My 2 year old has tumbling curls and people always touch his hair because it's so gorgeous!

I am sorry it was deleted OP. YANBU in the slightest. I have also noticed that Mumsnet can be quite racist, it’s not pleasant

@CognitiveDissonance yes I agree with both you and the OP

The very people shouting that it’s all bullshit and denying these experiences are the ones perpetuating the problem

How can we simply shut down a plea for people to listen to those who are not being heard - again

I never denied it happened. I believe the op, I just don’t think it’s fair to assume the old lady had racist motives and since she’s not online to say exactly why, none of us can assume she is a racist.

I didn't see your post op but I wish I had.

I am mixed race and my hair is natural. I've had the TAs from the kids school trying to touch it when I'm in to hear readers this year. That was the first in a while for me. It used to happen all the time up until about my early 20s until I learned to perfect my fuck off face. I hated it. I still hate it. I asked them not to touch my hair as i don't like it. Which now makes me an aggressive black woman. Can't win really.

I don't talk to my friends about 'little' issues like this as I know they wouldn't understand. Bit sad really.

I wish I'd seen your op.

It was a racist thing to do Twinning1. The motives are irrelevant, the experiences of black people saying "This is racist. Stop it" is relevant.

I’m sorry OP. I saw your thread and it was full of wilfully ignorant insidiously racist arseholes. Seems like this thread has drawn some of the same.

I’m really sorry you and other BME posters have to put up with this shit on MN.

OP it’s rubbish.

Part of the nature of privilege is having the luxury of not even realising you have it: I’m white, straight, educated, salaried and married. All those things make my life significantly easier because they conform to cultural norms, and even though I’m in a job that requires frequent training and discussion around equality, and grew up in a multicultural city where white people are not the majority, and prefer not to be a massive twat so try to challenge my own prejudices all the time, I still need constant reminders.

The most recent one was filling in a form that asked how much you feel people in public treat you respectfully (often, because I’m smiley and polite and A Good Person, and most people are also basically good, I thought as I answered). Next question: to what extent do you think this is to do with your race, level of education, attractiveness? Made me laugh out loud at myself because I suddenly realised it’s not because I’m lovely, it’s because I’m pink and well spoken and look ‘ordinary’ enough to be totally anonymous.

So yep. It’s not black peoples job to educate white people, but white people (even or indeed especially those of us who think we’re aware and have transcended the racism inherent in our society) do need to be constantly reminded to challenge and re-evaluate our own thinking/behaviour around race specifically and difference in general.

Also Many people have examples of white peoples being touched in China and south east Asia, Africa; examples of touching red or blonde hair etc. - fucking hell. Being touched in a culture where the norms regarding touching are different and you’re far from home is utterly different to being touched by other people from your own city while you’re at home and trying to get on with your day. You are exotic and ‘other’ in the first scenario. You shouldn’t be in the second.

Hmm. I’m ranty this morning - think I really just meant to say thanks OP for not shutting up. YANBU.

i can only think it might have been deleted as it was more or less the same as what was said by Jamelia (sp) on the tv today.(have to say watching that on tv gave me the rage, who would think touching someones hair was right)

I've not seen the Jamelia video but it may have given OP, an MN member for 10 years, the confidence to post about what she saw.

But there’s more to racism than having “racist motives” and things like “no blacks” signs or racial violence, Twinning. She helped herself to the OP’s personal space and touched her hair BECAUSE the OP is black. That is racist and IMO only someone who doesn’t accept their white privilege wouldn’t see that.

Also at the end of the day the OP is black. She has to live her life and deal with her own experiences day in day out. The only person’s assessment as to whether this was racist which counts is hers.

@Dione and @Verbana

YES

OP, I asked MNHQ why the thread was deleted but haven't received a response.

I've reported too and asked about the 'locking' rather than deleting idea - but as it's the weekend I am not expecting an immediate response. I think this is an issue which the senior MNHQ bods should look at and think about properly.

Yes, some of the posters seem to think racism is only ‘real’ if someone has a swastika tattoo and a white hood

Twinning - that's not an ok argument. The world is set up in such a way that some characteristics convey power and status (white skin, male gender, wealth, etc) while others don't.

To produce a truly equal society those of us with the privileged characteristics have to be aware of how we affect people round about us. If the finish line is we all feel safe and happy going about our daily business some of us will need different input from our environment than others.

I remember some years back seeing the director of the organisation come up to my colleague, who had just had her afro hair done in a new hairstyle, asking: 'Have your had your hair done? It suits you!' She then proceeded to touch and sort of 'examine' the hair on the top of her head while my colleague was sitting down and she was standing up. I remember cringing a bit, but being in my early twenties with a poor understanding of racism, I wasn't really sure why.

Another time, a friend told me how her MIL touched her friend's dreadlocks and said: 'It's amazing that you can have your hair like this without it getting dirty and smelly! It's actually clean!' This caused a long-standing rift as the MIL just couldn't understand why this would cause any upset!

Agree the thread could be put back up. Locking rather than deleting seems a good idea.

I feel quite offended by people saying I don’t accept my “white privilege” hate that term and hate the way it’s chucked around. None of you know me so you can’t assume anything. There are so many other reasons why life might be “easier” for some people not others it’s not possible to fully blame race for anything (upbringing, education, religion, money, two parent families just some of the examples) and none of you know anything about me or anyone else on here