Thanks to many on Mumsnet, and MNHQ

[ArbitersCarbiters]

For showing your true colours.

I’ve been a member of Mumsnet on and off for almost 10 years. It holds a special place in my heart - it got me through the long nights with my DC, bumps in my career, the breakdown of my marriage and helping me finally confront the grief at becoming an orphan far too young. I gradually stopped posting on here precisely because I began to see how hostile a place it could be (and was) for women of colour, especially those who called out micro-aggressions and thinly-veiled racist/dehumanising behaviour.

I wish MNHQ had let my (now deleted) thread stand as it was the perfect example of what so many black women have to face everyday (albeit hidden behind a sheer facade of disingenuous naivety and inclusivity).

Instead, it was deleted. The irony of that is that when people claim so many posters on here are and can be hostile to black women and our experiences, the evidence of that hostility is lost forever, and so those same posters and others can claim that it never existed in the first place.

Perhaps seeing the vitriol in writing might help people understand the reality (and denial) of our day-to-day experiences.

Or not.

And right now, I’m verging towards not.

As you were 🤷🏾‍♀️

You don't have to be black to hate being touched, but I can appreciate that it must happen a lot to black people.

I used to know a boy who was mixed race, he had blond hair and exactly the same shade skin and had never had a haircut. He was beautiful and I often told him and his mum so. I suddenly feel racist, even though I have a mixed race brother myself.

I saw some of the posts, reported a few for sheer rudeness (and I very very rarely report) and gave up with thinking you could reason with many of the arguments.
I remember someone telling me once that 'offence is in the taking' I.e, if you offend someone, even if you didn't mean it, that person is still offended.
This thread reminded me of that. It's no good justifying the action that gave rise to the offence, what I took from the OP is that this was offensive to her and maybe we should try and see why.

I saw this thread

From the lofty position of my white privilege I didn’t see this as a racial issue. That doesn’t make the behaviour right. It was overstepping boundaries, rude, and inappropriate.

I was nodding along with those women saying it had happened to them, because it has happened to me - regardless of their/my skin. Because it has also happened to me I didn’t see it as a race issue.

Is it definite that black women experience this more than white women?

I am not trying to minimise anyone’s experiences and my white privilege may well be blinding me to the fact that if this happens to a white woman it’s rude, and to a black woman it’s rude and racist - but that in and of itself does not make me racist.

I was very happy to read all the viewpoints on the thread in order to expand my own, and it was a shame it got deleted.

Twinning, your persistent defence of the older women is bizarre when you are repeatedly being told by black women on this thread and the last that the experience of having their hair touched is frequent, unwelcome and has its roots in racism.

It's interesting that Twinning is more concerned with the feelings of this unknown, absent white women and her right to not be called unconsciously racist as a result of white privilege, rather than the feelings and thoughts of black women who are present on this thread and who have given their experiences of racism, conscious or unconscious. White privilege and fragility silences black grievance.

No, Twinning, the point is not 'don't assume someone's motives'. Black women are telling you it's not unusual for people to touch their hair without permission. You yourself just said people touch people they find unusual/different. People touch black women's hair because it's seen as unusual, different, or even public property, like babies are. basically, then, racism. The important part is the experience of those women, not the possible motives of each and every miscreant.

@Havaina

waves We spoke yesterday. You were getting alot of flak from people.

Originally, I first thought, this is about personal space. But then I read the replies and started seeing things from a different perspective. I started thinking what if this isn't about MY perception of events.
This was about the OP's perception of events.

Think about this. For centuries, black people have been persecuted, murdered, shot, tortured, raped, lynched, belittled, demoralised, objectified, sold like cattle, branded like cattle, treated like cattle, depersonalised, ostracised, humiliated and hated. Just because of their skin.
And then, even in this century, there are still people who use the 'n' word, there are still people who think being black is a source of entertainment (golliwogs), there are still black people being shot for no reason at all.

And then... after you've encountered all that, you have someone white reach over and run their fingers through your hair. Like they're entitled to do that?!
After such a long time of white privilege and white people asserting their supposed superiority over black people, this would feel like another thing to add to the list of racist acts.

I am grateful for having seen that thread @MNHQ and I am deeply disturbed you felt the need to delete without any explanation.

I feel that some people are struggling to recognise the racism because they wouldn't do it with racism in mind. They would never have that intent. However, to those people, I suggest you really try and put yourselves in the OP's shoes with all that history in mind. Then it might make more sense. Do not dismiss it just because that makes life simpler for you.

And the thread has helped me to realise that it is a race issue in as much as the people doing the innappropriate touching are doing it because the hair is unusual to them (mine was when it was a unique colour, with dreads, and again when it was extremely long). So if they are touching someone’s hair because it is an Afro or whatever, belonging to a black person - then yes it’s race.

I get it and that’s why the thread mattered (obv not just for my awareness but others too)

I was doing something difficult in a public area recently and a random person put their hands around my waist to help. From a women it would have been overstepping boundaries. From the man who did it, it was sexist as he would not have done that to a man - but only I know that as I was there, so people would need to take my word for it. As we should be taking the OP’s word that this was a race issue even though not all incidences of hair touching might be.

@ArbitersCarbiters, and everyone else who shared their thoughts on the decision to delete the thread - thank you. We've had a chat about what you've said, and, based on that, we will reinstate it, but closed for further comments. OP, we're sorry you were upset by our decision last night - it was made in good faith but with hindsight was not the right one for your thread.

The thread was derailed by the Tommy Robinson fan club.

Loving 72 as automatically frail, elderly, and from a different age. Anyone currently 72 grew up through the Swinging Sixties, not the 1890s.

Thank you to poster who shared the original post, it should have been left on here. It is an issue, and no one should be touched by a stranger and there is lots of articles about this as it a common issue especially with children.

PhilomenaButterfly, my ds is a mixed race, and often been commented about his looks by friends or strangers. I never felt insulted, nor he did. It could be a different story if they touched him uninvited.

Good call MNHQ

To those saying that in some countries touching someone who looks different is the norm, those are different countries so not in the UK. In some different countries women are discriminated against, certain sexual orientations are banned etc - just because they are the norm in other countries doesn't mean they are acceptable in the UK.

Thanks for reinstating. I now realise I've been engaging with someone who is not thick, as I assumed, but actually a raging racist and will never be told. Great.

Thank you @MNHQ

Glad to see it's back up!

To Twinning and the others questioning whether this is racist, replace that with ‘sexist’ and ask yourself how you’d feel. Imagine a woman - maybe even you - is telling a group of people they’re sick of being leered at or told to smile or groped in bars, and the men in the group say, ‘well, that’s not sexism, women have groped me in bars and smiled at me in the street! Maybe they just thought you were pretty! Stop giving men such a hard time, some are really nice you know!’

We all know that because society usually goes in men’s favour, they can’t imagine what it’s like to experience this, and it is different when it comes from a man to a woman because of the power and status imbalance. I imagine you’d be the first to complain about those men minimising your experiences.

But what you’re doing to the OP and other black women here who’ve spoken, is exactly the same. You CANNOT imagine or compare to your own experiences because you’re perceived by others in a different way. THAT is white privilege. If you’re white, you’ve got it, it’s literally that simple (I am white btw, and happy to accept I have white privilege and question and check my own thought processes and behaviours). If you feel offended, examine why that is - are you scared that actually, if you scratched the surface of your assumptions, you might some that could be described as prejudiced or at least blind to prejudice?

Racism doesn’t have to be intentional. Even gestures we think are funny or positive or complimentary can still be racist, even if the intention was totally pleasant. It’s fine to say “shit, I never thought about it this way before, I honestly thought I was just giving a compliment by touching hair” and learn from it, and stop doing it, and listen to how black women say it affects them. You might feel guilty or hurt that you’ve been racist, because you know you didn’t mean to, but that’s fine - accept it, change your behaviour and be better. Isn’t that what we want men to do when it comes to how they treat women? What’s not ok is to say you’re offended and refuse to examine your own ideas while shutting out the experiences of people on the receiving end.

Would someone post a link to the original thread please?
If it is no longer in Active Conversations, how can people find it?

Thanks irvine, I'd hate to have got it wrong. 😀

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3365535-To-the-two-ladies-at-Dingwall-Road-bus-stop-in-Croydon-at-16-15pm-today?msgid=81019704

Do black men get this too? It sounds like another thing only women are expected to shut up about. Racist and sexist.

Agreed @johnny

I feel like it’s pointless trying to engage / explain to her though.
One cannot reason someone out of an opinion that they have not reasoned their way into.

I’m glad it’s back up OP, because racist twats aside there were some really articulate, valid explanations of exactly why it’s offensive and why it’s not ok.

Those, at least, should be able to be read and understood, because it matters.

One particular bit stood out for me in terms of white women being able to help, “be the change”. Yes! I can’t say what it’s like to be a black woman, because I’m not a black woman. But I can listen, and add my voice to theirs in solidarity.

My daughter has a beautiful big afro. She refuses to wear it 'out' in public because strangers in queues, on buses, in supermarkets constantly stick their hands in it. She's four and has already learned people will not ask her permission before touching her. I've had real, shouty words with people in public about this, when they got extremely offended when I've told them to get their hands off my daughter. People who are entitled enough to do this do not like being told no.

It is racist. My niece has gorgeous, long blonde hair and nobody has ever touched her hair without asking first. And that's the difference, she or her mum will politely say 'no' and that will be the end of it. They see a white mother with a white child and think, 'don't want to upset them, better ask first'.

People just touch my daughter and then upon noticing my angry face, will say something like "oh sorry, but it's so tempting!" - then fucking control yourself, and don't act like I've just slapped you with a fish when I say no. We have no obligation to allow you to see what it feels like, she's not public property, she's a person.

It's unbelievable that some people can't see this. Really.

Twinning my mother is a white, middle class elderly lady, she says things like "well I didn't mean for it to sound racist" when I call her out on things. She knows damn well what she said was offensive so trying to pretend that people from an older generation don't know what they're saying or doing is naive.
Growing up my best friend was black I saw what she had to contend with. My kids are mixed race, I've seen the difference in treatment they've had and yes I had [when they were babies], oh look at their beautiful skin colour, it's so different to pink rosy cheeks.
I have white privilege, I accept that and it's about time we stopped making excuses because of someone's age.

I had not seen that thread, but we'll done, OP, for speaking out initially and for standing up for your thread too.

As others have said, it's important to listen. Like we women also need to be listened to by men.
When we don't know what it's like, we must listen first.