Weekly overnight stay at GPs

[Goostacean]

In the middle of an ongoing negotiation with DH re childcare. PFB so we don't know what we're doing

How will a toddler (15 months +) be affected by sleeping at grandparents', once a week?

Hypothetical situation: Monday daytime with DM (and DF when he's back from work around 6pm), overnight at GPs, Tuesday dropped back at home in the afternoon, and DM/MIL stay until we get home from work. So toddler would see a parent on Monday morning, and Tuesday evening/night. Nursery Weds-Fri.

We don't see eye-to-eye, and neither do parents/in-laws. AIBU to ask for your views? Not posting mine yet as don't want to sway the responses!

I suspect those comments are in reply to my post, Goostacean

My dcs' after school CM looked after her grandchildren when her dd went back to work. (She'd have been in her 60s). She did it and loved it and seemed to manage very well on it. Of course there are people who can, but I have a lot of friends in their 60s, who love their grandchildren to bits, and are very happy to help out when they can - having them the occasional weekend for the parents to go to a wedding or whatever, but they are generally pretty exhausted afterwards.
We are all different, but I know I creak a lot more in my 50s than I did in my 30s. I suspect I'm not alone.

Oh no, they were to Bluelady who posted after you saying “I'm 65 and there's plenty of energy to look after a toddler. Sadly, there isn't one available to test the theory. Please don't write us off as poor, feeble little old ladies with no stamina, most of us in our 60s just aren't like that.”

I definitely think most people have less energy as they get older- I find the disrupted nights hard enough now and I’m in my 20s! Hopefully the regular reviews will make sure there are no problems on this front; I think (hope!) all the GP would say if it were too much. We have the means to use nursery more or get a nanny or whatever, so they wouldn’t be letting us down- it’s the GP who WANT to have DC, at this stage.

My two regularly stayed over with Grandparents for a night or two from. The age of 18 months and 4 months.

They're now 7 and 4 and go away with their grandparents for up to a fortnight for holidays with no fuss while still being confident wee beings who get cross when I leave school/nursery but cope just fine.

I can see why some would love this but I personally couldn’t because:

1. I don’t want to be separated from my toddler for a night, certainly not weekly. I’ve not spent a night away from her since she was born and that is simply because I do not want to.

1. I don’t feel like I need a break from her. I work only two days a week and it would seem like an unnecessary indulgence.

1. There is no need for me to spend a night away from her. Both sets of GPs live the exact same distance away (opposite roads!) and are within walking distance.

My situation is of course entirely different from yours. Despite what I have said above, if my toddler (2 years old) did ever spend a night with either set of GPs she would enjoy it and would certainly not be damaged from it at all. She does see both GM very regularly and loves spending time with them.

The only thing that I would be concerned about is just how little time you will have with your son during the week. A few hours each day (fewer on the days he is sleeping at GM’s) at best? It’s amazing how quickly they change once they hit a year old and you will miss so much. If I had to work full time (or had a career which inspired me to want to work full time) I would do all I could to make sure I saw my child as much as possible when I wasn’t at work.

It may be because our circumstances are worlds apart, but I honestly can not see why a night away from your child, when you won’t see him much in the week as it is, is so appealing.

I think if you decide yourself that the overnights aren't necessary then it won't be the thin edge of the wedge, especially if you make it clear your reasons and the fact that you would like to continue with your career. The overnight thing is more to do with your sleep, from the sound of it, and you could stay late and still return home to your toddler if GPs look after your toddler at home if just to do with your career. Incidentally sleep deprivation is common in early days of demanding careers as well as when you have young children. When I started out, 17 hour days or longer were the norm. It is what it is!

I think that it is not so much "will this be damaging yes or no" it is more that everything you do with young children will have an impact (and that is not disputed as far as I know). A child's brain is something like 20 percent developed at birth and 80 percent developed at 3, and the stimulation and experiences a child has during this period will impact on the child's intelligence, character, self esteem, likes and dislikes, emotional stability, everything. So it is a matter of you working out what the impact of the overnights would be (and you being away at the moment, and all your other plans) and whether you are happy with it. The choices you make are yours alone, whether fair or not.

I am not sure this thread is representative about how common it is for toddlers to spend one night away every week, by the way. I don't know anyone who does it. I know lots of families with GPs involved, and with stays away occasionally, but not as a regular thing. That is not to say it is wrong, obviously, I don't know, but I don't think it is common.

Anyway, best of luck!

Worked for our family (many years ago) and my dd had always been v close to her gps

Are your PIL likely to also want an overnight stay?

and for arguments sake say they did, Would you be happy with 2 nights or do every other week or cancel current arrangement

Out of curiosity would anyone else be comfortable with more than one weekly overnight stays?

I don’t know whether PIL will also want an overnight stay... AFAIK they think it’s best for bedtime to be done every night by the same person and for baby to be in his own bed. This came out during a discussion about two nights in a row at my parents’, so not sure about their views in other scenarios.

I’d be very happy to let them have DS, although probably not on a consecutive night to being at my parents’. As long as baby is happy (all of these arrangements will have to change if he does settle) and with people who love him, I’m happy.

FWIW I think it's great you're putting the needs of your child first - and it was because of this I asked re 2 nights, but for my musings around a situation a colleague is in...I wanted your thoughts

I think as long as he has a gradual transition and is in a regular and predictable routine with consistent messages across the parenting he'll be fine and well loved

Thanks Chish, I think there was a sense IRL that I’m not putting my child’s needs first- that he needs to be with a primary carer every morning and evening, and that will, unless my husband changes his job, fall to me. Obviously I disagree with that view, hence the whole debate!

I too wouldn't want to do this as would want as much time with DS if I was working. I went back to work part-time after maternity leave, and went back 3 days a week, so psychologically I was at home more than I was at work. But I know that is how I feel. DH still had to work FT.

Also because DS was in nursery for long hours on the 3 days I worked I wanted him to have as much time in his own home with his own things on the other days

Personally I wouldn’t be able to do it. I’m not ready to be away from my child overnight and not sure when I will be ready. But that’s a personal view. If you’re happy with it and everyone else is too (including the toddler) then go for it. Slight issue is that your DH isn’t so keen because he would like to see your toddler before bed. You need to discuss with him whether he would realistically be back at home in time for bed or do the night time wake ups etc. If not and it would all be on you then it doesn’t seem fair to pass up the gp’s offer.

Fiw I think you're a brilliant mum, OP. You understand that your child needs love more than anything else and that's your primary concern. You're also secure enough to be prepared to allow other people who love him to have close relationship with him. Whatever happens, you'll do the right thing for him.

In answer to your question, I work full time.

@tessica2 @BlaaBlaaBlaa @Goostacean

I was asked for sources re what I had originally said about overnights not been ideal, and I have finally had the chance to have a look - you may have also found these in the interim.

The first is a clear summary about why overnights are not recommended, and all the relevant surrounding issues, from the point of view of long term mental health, it goes into some detail and has really good recommendations for planning overnights if they are to go ahead. Sources are referred to. Differing findings are also referred to. This is to do with divorce but the psychological issues described would be equally applicable to any overnight.

The second has more detail of the background and carries out a small study. It indicates that more research is needed but that in the meantime, a conservative approach is recommended, ie no overnights is the recommended stance. Again, differing findings are acknowledged, that some studies did not criticise overnights, but the overall recommendation was that no study found benefits of overnights and on balance the recommendation would be no overnights. I hope that that makes sense. Again this is to do with divorce but again if you read it you will see it is to do with development and attachment and need for primary care giver etc so equally applicable.

www.aaimhi.org/key-issues/position-statements-and-guidelines/AAIMHI-guideline-1-Overnight-care.pdf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4307616/

The rubbishing of Penelope Leach appears to be limited to campaigns to do with more rights for fathers .... I have read Penelope Leach for years and her advice has changed over time to accommodate new research but right from the early years she was advocating the importance of the father's role and the importance of regular contact (just not overnights...) so I think the criticisms of her are a bit bonkers - in any event it is rights of children which are important rather than rights of fathers, or that should be the case.

Anyway, I hope that this is helpful and interesting.

I meant "not being ideal" not "not been ideal"!!!

Name change I think you must have been extremely desperate to try and pass that lot off as being relevant to what’s being discussed here.

I would probably plan to stay over at your parents for the first few months but try to get them to take main responsibility for putting him to bed etc. Then review after 2-3 months which would be 10 times. It will naturally evolve as he gets to know them better, you have the odd late deadline etc. If they are a train ride from work it probably won't add much to the commuting costs. When dh is home you can modify the plan and he can pick ds up or go to your parents himself.

pollyflinders if this goes against what you did then I wouldn't worry, this isn't about dictating to others or judging, just about sources.

I forgot to say, I am not certain that these are the latest but I had a good look and couldn't find anything recent.

@theoneoffnamechange those guidelines are in no way relevant to what is being discussed here. It is aimed at divorced or separated families and is taking in to account the additional stress this causes young children.

I am sorry @blaablaablaa but what you are saying is quite simply wrong and misleading. I have no personal interest in this and no experience as my parents and parents in law were ancient at the time our first was born and not offering overnights for sure, and I am not divorced - there is no research about overnights at grandparents and the experts behind both these articles would almost certainly give the same advice as both refer to separation from primary care giver as the key issue, stresses to do with divorce are over and above that. Read them again. It is your choice how you interpret them and how this affects your teaching in real life.

I think you need to read them again. It specifically states it's in relation to divorced or separated parents. It also references the stress this situation causes young children. It doesn't mention grandparents and for you suggest the advice would be the same is incredibly misleading.....you're inferring this is what the research suggests when you aren't qualified to do so.

YANBU - it’s culturally the norm in lots of other countries for grandchildren to live with GPs whilst the parents work and earn money to provide for everyone. My BIL and his siblings lived with his grandmother for much of his childhood but still all have a very normal close bond with their parents too. I appreciate that’s the extreme and not the cultural norm in the UK but think it at least proves that care from grandparents has many positives.

I also started overnights for DD with my parents and in laws early so that it was never an issue to leave her in an emergency.

@blaablaablaa it refers to divorce and separation because that is where overnights have become a significant and contentious issue. It also says that more research is needed in this area. If you read the guidance re mental health it lists off the psychological issues related to separation from primary care giver, disruption of routine, etc all of which would be relevant to ANY overnight stay away - I can list them all off here if that would help you. I really think you need to read both articles, in full, again. I say this only because you indicated that you teach a relevant subject and so this area is relevant to you professionally.

For some families overnights with GPs might be the preferable option, if this helps the parents cope, for example. But it is really unhelpful to completely ignore what little research there is about the wider issues and say it only applies in situations of divorce/separation.

@oneoff you came on here claiming that psychologists advised against all overnight stays for under 5's. An actual psychologist replied saying that was untrue.
If you think these guidelines back up your opinion then you're deluded.
These guideline's are Australian ( you'd probably find different guidelines applied to different countries) and they have been written in the context of divorce and separation. Yes, they reference overnight stays in the general sense but they also place those in the context of stress and unfamiliar surroundings and carers.
It does state that if a strong bond is formed with, for example, grandparents then successful overnight stays can be achieved.
The stress for young people occurs mainly when they're forced into unfamiliar surroundings with carers that haven't established a strong bond.

However, every child is different and parents need to judge each situation on an individual basis .