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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Weekly overnight stay at GPs

243 replies

Goostacean · 13/09/2018 14:14

In the middle of an ongoing negotiation with DH re childcare. PFB so we don't know what we're doing Grin

How will a toddler (15 months +) be affected by sleeping at grandparents', once a week?

Hypothetical situation: Monday daytime with DM (and DF when he's back from work around 6pm), overnight at GPs, Tuesday dropped back at home in the afternoon, and DM/MIL stay until we get home from work. So toddler would see a parent on Monday morning, and Tuesday evening/night. Nursery Weds-Fri.

We don't see eye-to-eye, and neither do parents/in-laws. AIBU to ask for your views? Not posting mine yet as don't want to sway the responses!

OP posts:
Blondebakingmumma · 22/09/2018 13:06

I’m sorry to be one of the few to disagree. I couldn’t be separated from my babies

Goostacean · 23/09/2018 12:18

Ooh more posts! I thought we were done. Thanks for the links, oneoff, I’ll have a proper read this week- clearly others disagree on the relevance, so I’ll have a good look before I draw any conclusions.

Overall, DH and I have discussed this twice again since I originally posted. It seems that his concerns are split into several issues- the possible detriment caused by overnights is only one of them, and the rest are more specific to the family/situation, so will need to have a think about how to proceed. We’ve been on holiday this week and he’s demonstrated some pretty serious PFB syndrome this week 😂 which he admits may also be a slight factor in this discussion.

OP posts:
theoneoffnamechange · 23/09/2018 12:47

@blaablaablaa I am only pursuing this with you because I think the research itself is important. Calling someone deluded isn't helpful, it is better to challenge the substance of what they have written rather than hurl insults.

These guideline's are Australian the first doc is Australian the second US. Research at this level is apparently cross jurisdictional. I am told that the UK has not had sufficient funding in relation to research for decades in these areas whereas Australia is well funded and has centres of excellence. The other doc is American. Other research has been done by Canada. All these docs refer to research done by other jurisdictions where it is relevant. Hope that makes sense.

It does state that if a strong bond is formed with, for example, grandparents then successful overnight stays can be achieved yes, yes it does, advising you start thinking about it at around 3, I will quote it in my next post. You need to read it in context and in my next post I will quote some parts of the report which I think are going to be more widely applicable than just divorce/separation.

An actual psychologist replied saying that was untrue no, she said that she was not aware of the research and she said that she was not an expert in this area, that she was a teacher with a doctorate (a narrow field of study) related to education and psychology.

Incidentally, I am an actual expert in an unrelated field, with post grad qualifications and years of experience, so not in this area but it means I know and state my limits.

theoneoffnamechange · 23/09/2018 12:56

So, quoting from the mental health guidelines - this document refers to people under stress making decisions about overnights and goes on to explain why they might not be a good solution - the following quoted from the report explains the situation generally NOT just in relation to divorce/separation, which is covered later in the guidelines more explicitly (NB I might be wrong, but it seems to me to be pretty obviously to be the case):

"i. despite the best of intentions, the absence of a primary caregiver when support is needed during the night is experienced by the infant and young child as frightening and inexplicable, because they don’t yet have the skills including language to understand it,

ii. an infant or young child does not have an understanding of time and hence absence or waiting may be experienced as a major loss,

iii. the care that is available, while thoughtful and well-intentioned, may be experienced by the infant or young child as unpredictable simply because it is different and therefore leads to anxiety,

iv. the significance of an infant or young child’s distress cues may be difficult to recognise by another carer, and if recognised, may need to be responded to by returning the infant to the care of the primary caregiver, which may not be possible if not thought about prior to the arrangement. When considering separating an infant or young child from their main caregiver overnight, some important factors that impact on infant development need to be considered. These factors include secure attachment, breastfeeding and stress

These are explanations of general issues too:

(i) Change

Change in our daily lives can be stressful for all of us and the younger the child the more likely that change is to be stressful. Very young infants can experience even small changes in their day as stressful such as a nappy change or bath (Perry et al, 1998). Similarly, parents and caregivers are aware of the stress experienced by even two-year-olds as a result of changes such as moving a young child from a cot to a bed or a parent returning to work. Young children in long day care and family day care have shown persistent stress reactions even when the group is small (family day care) and the carers are warm and responsive. Negative reactions are more prevalent when the care is controlling. Where possible the infant or young child’s primary caregiver supports the child through changes, ensures as far as possible that the change takes place at the child’s pace and not too many changes occur at once. This helps the child to build the resilience that will be needed to cope with change throughout life.

(ii) Night time fears

Night times are more stressful than daytimes for infants and children and for many adults as well (Dewar, 2014). When night time sleep problems occur, fears related to separation can arise in older infants and young children who are most likely to need the support of their primary caregiver in their familiar environment. ......Again, ideally, care would take place in the infant or young child’s familiar surroundings with the carers moving out for the period, rather than the child. This is of often very difficult in practice although some parents manage it for the benefit of their children

These covers how you can start to make overnights work (and is relevant to @blaablaablaa's post) but NB there is more in the documents and they are very easy to read and full of info which will help people make informed choices:

5. Whenever undertaken, overnight time away from the primary caregiver is best with a caregiver who is already a source of security and comfort to the infant or young child. In separated families, this level of security is optimally established and maintained over the first few years via regular, 2 to 3 times per week daytime caregiving-based contact that supports the baby’s routines. By the time the child is at least in part able to self-soothe, consistently turns to the other parent for comfort, and is less reliant on the primary attachment relationship to co-regulate his or her stress states, then the child is more likely to manage a gradual introduction to a well-supported overnight arrangement between cooperative parents.

6. Care should be taken not to fragment an infant’s schedule, for example, with long day care plus frequent visits with the other parent. When practical, and when the other parent is already a source of comfort and security to the infant, day-time care by the other parent should be prioritised above time spent in group day care.

7. Generally, in the third to fourth year, when developmental, emotional, parenting and practical conditions are supportive, regular overnight care with the other parent may be gradually phased in, at low frequencies, and always with monitoring of the child’s response.

8. Finally, in all scenarios, priority should be given to the child’s emotional security which should be carefully monitored and responded to sensitively and thoughtfully. When an infant under three has to be away from his or her primary caregiver overnight, regardless of whether the parents are separated or not, and assuming that parents are able to work cooperatively, the following strategies are recommended

As I said, both docs are clearly written.

Bluelady · 23/09/2018 12:59

OP, you can read research until you're eyes fall out but you know your child and your parents. At the end of the day, you need to do what's right in your situation. Given that your husband is swanning off and leaving you with most of the childcare and asking you to allow your career to take a hit, his opinion takes a back seat. If his pfb syndrome is so important to him, let him make the changes to his working life to allow you to pursue your career.

You might want to point out to him that your parents did a good enough job with you for him to want to marry and have a family with you so they're not going to provide rubbish care to his pfb who they love nearly as much as he does.

Bluelady · 23/09/2018 13:00

Your, not you're - bloody autocorrect!

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 23/09/2018 13:19

@oneoff you know what. I'm hungover and don't have the time nor inclination to read a post of that length.
You came on here claiming overnight stays for under 5's weren't recommended by psychologists. Nothing you have posted has convinced me that's true. Professionally, personally and anecdotally I know that to be an untrue statement.
As many, many people have stated you need to assess the individual situation. Making use of the wider family network can be a wonderful and enriching experience for many children.

And if we're listing qualifications and credentials....I have a degree, masters and PhD in a related subject and I'm an academic researcher in a university department which teaches childhood development and education. I mentioned your claim to my colleagues who unanimously agreed that it wasn't the case.

Anyway, I'm off to spend time with my son who, incidentally, stayed at grandparents last night. Something he's done regularly since he was weeks old. No damage to report as of yet ......🙄

youlethergo · 23/09/2018 13:40

BlaaBlaaBlaa

You really should read that long post if you're going to pontificate. In the nicest possible way, it's very important.

youlethergo · 23/09/2018 13:44

OP, I find myself thinking of your son and hoping this arrangement with his dad working away isn't long term.

That's a huge sacrifice to make for a job. Sometimes there's no other way, I know. But no amount of money is worth what your son will be missing out on.

It's very difficult to know how things will work out with GPs playing a major caring role when it's not happening at the moment. The time to make a decision is when you have some idea of how you gel together and how DS finds it. You have no idea if it really would work at this point.

I try to keep an open mind that these arrangements may well work. But both parents must be prepared to drop their job fulfilment/standard of living (if it's a question of going from well-off to economising) for the child if necessary.

Goostacean · 23/09/2018 13:51

@youlethergo, the job is definitely a choice and not a financial necessity for us... hence my frustration with being left “holding the baby “.

OP posts:
Tunnocks34 · 23/09/2018 13:54

Both of mine stay at my parents every Friday night. It’s an absolute dream.

I literally have a bath, a glass of wine and me and OH watch a film, and then have a lie in the next morning.

Kids love it. My parents love it (their request - we didn’t ask them).

youlethergo · 23/09/2018 14:03

If that's the case, OP, I wonder if a live-in nanny wouldn't provide more continuity of care through the week? That would mean another care-giver was consistently there, DS was sleeping in his own bed and you weren't taking a hit for your DP's dream career.

Goostacean · 23/09/2018 14:13

@youlethergo That’s one of DH’s suggestions, actually, but I’m very anti a live in nanny. I like to have privacy and my own space. My SIL lived with us for 6 months and she’s fantastic, but even that took me back to houseshares and student living.

I find it intrusive to have someone else there all the time, whereas my DH apparently doesn’t mind at all (even though, in reality, it was his sister and he was travelling all week anyway, so clearly the impact on him was much less).

I don’t see why I should be inconvenienced and always experiencing a low to medium level of stress in my own home, for his dream job, like you say. Especially as that means baby would be cared for in the night by an employee instead of a loving family member, anyway. And the solution wouldn’t help DS to bond with his grandparents.

Sorry, don’t mean to be harsh, I’m just really unkeen on the idea!

OP posts:
youlethergo · 23/09/2018 14:49

I hadn't realised you were looking at the overnight thing as a positive way of encouraging and GP/DS bond. If that's the case, then I agree it would be silly to look for an alternative.

I suppose a live-out nanny is also a viable option but you will have considered and discarded that for similar reasons.

Fair enough. Apart from coming home and working locally, I'm not sure what more your DP could do.

Bluelady · 23/09/2018 15:05

He could agree to the perfectly sensible suggestion OP has made!

Goostacean · 23/09/2018 16:00

Absolutely, and he’s very hardworking and ambitious, which I love about him. I don’t want him to give up his job, I suppose I just want him to trust me a bit more that I’m not making decisions to the detriment of the baby. At the moment, realistically, I do >90% of the childcare, calculated by hours in the week. For 84 of those hours DH isn’t even in the country, so many many decisions are entirely mine- with no back up. So I suppose I feel entitled to a larger say in DS’s care, although possibly that’s unfair of me.

Anyway, this is me going off on a tangent, although the reflection is very helpful for me. The real issue was whether anyone has had negative experiences of DC overnight with GPs!

OP posts:
shouldwestayorshouldwego · 23/09/2018 17:23

To be honest I think him being away for large stretches of time will probably have a larger impact than spending one night a week with the grandparents. Do you think some of his concern is actually because he is aware that he is away so much and he won't have as much input to your dd's life. From a child's perspective, at that age, nothing is better than two parents entirely devoted to their every need - however that doesn't mean that it is practical or even necessarily desirable.

Could you have a plan whereby when he is out of the country your parents have ds and when dh is here and able to be back early that his parents look after him?

Goostacean · 23/09/2018 21:05

That’s not a bad idea, because his travel is so project-dependent. Tbh I’m ready to be as flexible and easygoing as possible, with all the phased starts and everything, as long as I get my flipping night off! We’ve had three really bad nights in a row now and DH has been around, so I think my comments on tough nights are starting to make a bit more sense to him now.

OP posts:
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