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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU in thinking British Gymnastics new guidelines are disadvantaging girls and putting them in danger?

278 replies

GColdtimer · 12/09/2018 14:20

I have just seen the BG new guidelines on inclusion (here.

They go against all of their own safeguarding policies by saying that children should use the changing room of the gender in which they identify (so boys who identify as girls can use the girls changing room. Their own safeguarding guidelines state changing rooms should be single sex.

They then say if the girls don't like it they can go elsewhere. If an individual remains unhappy about a trans person using facilities appropriate to their gender identity, then they should make alternative arrangements

They also say the same for residential trips. And because privacy is of greatest important (although not for girls it would seem), a teenage girl (or her parents) may not be told she is sharing a room with a teenage boy (who identifies as a girl.)

This goes against all of their published safeguarding guidelines which says there should be single sex changing rooms, washing facilities and sleeping arrangements (for trips).

They also say children under 16 can compete in the gender they identify with. So boys can compete against the girls if they wish.

(Girls can also complete against boys but its highly unlikely they will).

Their guidelines on gender also, say Signs can appear at a very young age e.g. a child refusing to wear typical clothes of their gender or taking part in non- typical games. I'd better tell my short haired, trouser wearing, rugby playing niece that the leading governing body for one of the most popular sports for children believe she is actually a boy.

AIBU in thinking this is sexist and dangerous and BG should be held to account?

OP posts:
HawkeyeInConfusion · 14/09/2018 17:38

The link from BG's policy via Stonewall via Aimee to David Challenor (the paedophile rapist) and that David Challenor was a gymnastics coach escaped me.

But now it makes me think.

Did Stonewall advise Girl Guides on their policy change? The one that gives boys who identify as girls access to girls' tents and washing facilities. And also allowed males who self id as women become guiding leaders (and get treated as females rather than males by the rules)?

Stonewall, with its links to Aimee, whose paedophile rapist father was a Scout leader?

averylongtimeago · 14/09/2018 17:44

Yes, they did. There are links to Stonewall on the GG website, on the pages about trans members.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 14/09/2018 21:09

Thanks Avery

So both British Gymnastics and Girl Guides were advised by Stonewall on their policy changes.

Aimee Challenor would have been one of those advisors?

It is known that Aimee and David Challenor worked together on political things.

And with a background of a gymnastics coach and a Scout leader, David Challenor would have presumably seen as an expert in these areas?

So it is possible that a significant part of these policies was influenced (maybe even written) by David Challenor.

The same David Challenor who was sentenced to 22 years in prison for torturing and raping a 10 year old girl whilst he was dressed in a nappy, a baby girl-style dress and insisting on being called Lucy?

Why the fuck aren't safeguarding klaxons going off left, right and centre?

cakeflower · 15/09/2018 10:13

Safeguarding children seems to be being flagrantly disregarded now, even politically incorrect because it conflicts with the self id mantra. It shocks me that this is allowed to happen in Britain in 2018.

busybarbara · 15/09/2018 10:24

so because a boy has been brave girls have to put aside any of their feelings of embarrassment or discomfort

Depends on the context. Imagine if boys were told they couldn't come out as gay for fear of making other boys in the changing room "uncomfortable". It'd be like we're living back in the 70s..

Keeptrudging · 15/09/2018 11:36

If you're equating it with gay rights, Barbara, surely the onus is on boys to accept the transgender boy in their changing rooms and girls to accept the transgender girl, as they are both part of the broad spectrum of what is a boy/girl?

GColdtimer · 15/09/2018 12:08

Barbara have a read of this thread which may help you understand why using "it's like homophobia" argument is wrong.

It's a false equivalency people use to shut down debate. magnificent Jane Clare Joneswww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3360726-The-magnificent-Jane-Clare-Jones

OP posts:
Datun · 15/09/2018 12:19

Depends on the context. Imagine if boys were told they couldn't come out as gay for fear of making other boys in the changing room "uncomfortable". It'd be like we're living back in the 70s..

Because it's incredibly homophobic to think that a gay man is going to be predatory, on the basis that he is gay. There is nothing to support that notion.

Whereas, it's well documented that the crimes of indecent exposure, voyeurism and sexual assault of women is committed by men.

Being gay is not what makes a human predatory. Being male is. (NAMALT goes without saying.)

I wish people would stop saying what about gay men, black people, women.

It's not about sexual orientation, lesbianism, or ethnicity.

It's about being male.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 15/09/2018 13:07

Barbara imagine - and this is something that does really happen - a child who suffered severe burns as a toddler and is terribly scarred, is causing a fuss at the local swimming bath communal changing room. Mothers don't want their children to be exposed to the sight of this child's scars and are saying to the staff that it's too upsetting to them to have to see this child and can't somewhere private be found for him and his mother. Of course the child and her mother are shattered by this, and it wasn't as if they didn't have enough distress around the situation before they were told they shouldn't upset people in public places.

In this situation, there is nothing concrete underlying the reaction but subjective emotion. The child is accessing the exact same provision every other child her age and sex would be accessing, and the only reason for the barrier is that the child's body looks different. The child's scars will cause no actual objective harm to look at. There is no risk associated or known to others from severe scarring that needs to be assessed and managed. So the basis of people's protests are in essence 'it is too upsetting/scary to me to be exposed to this, I can't handle it' and historically and culturally society expected to put people with differences out of sight and out of mind, and many people have rarely seen others with significant physical difference and had very little opportunity to accustom themselves. So absolutely, bottom line, that child and mother are damned well going to be supported to change in a public place and the staff have a lot of work to do around them not experiencing tuts, disapproval and upset from other people because of it. BUT from working directly in this situation I can assure you that telling the women complaining - whatever you may personally be muttering at the back of your mind - to shut up and deal with it, will not achieve equality or protection for the mother and child, and will do nothing to resolve the problem. It will just make the people complaining feel angrier and more entrenched as they haven't been listened to and have been made to feel bad about their feelings, and make the rejection more embedded. They will be armed and more ready to reject the next person they meet with physical differences, building on their bad experience.

What does work to increase inclusion is to keep your boundary of this child has the right to be here even if it distresses you, and at the same time hearing and addressing the feelings of the people protesting. With compassion. With understanding that these feelings are hard for them, they are genuine, and if you want to change them you need to help. So conversations like finding out why it's so upsetting for them - the basis is usually they are desperately upset this happened to the child, and don't know how to express that, or how to be around a parent in this obvious situation of grief and loss- actually do help. Attitudes shift.

You're viewing trans as the same here: a person in a physical body that doesn't look as expected, and that's something the person had no control over. So look through the attitudes and feelings behind people who are raising concerns. Is a trans person in a male body in a female changing room doing exactly the same as any other person of their sex would do?

No. You're asking women to accept that a male body - like all the male bodies segregated by current law with full acceptance from all just a few yards away in the male changing room - should be acceptable in a women's space if the male bodied person wants it to be. That's very debatable. That's not straight forward prejudice at all, people are being asked to radically reconstruct concepts and boundaries and make exemptions to law, based on nothing more than one person's subjective feelings.

Using the 'you're just not used to seeing difference' - SHOULD all women and girls be cool about getting naked in mixed sex environments with male strangers? Is it a good thing that women and girls are taught to overcome, aka ignore their embarrassment and possible intimidation and harassment? A good thing to teach women and girls to release and reduce their boundaries around their body and their privacy? What are we going to do about women and girls with faith conflicts that will not allow them to do this - particularly since some of them come from minority groups already struggling with equality and freedom for women and access to public life?

Is there a real possibility of harm? Yes. There isn't a way around this one. The whole basis of sex segregation is to reduce harm and assault for women as a class. Male bodied people in women's spaces does come with real risk that needs to be assessed and managed; telling the women to shut up about the risk doesn't make the risk go away or reduce it. Not in line with risk assessment standard process, not in line with standard safeguarding process, risks inclusion for the group as if a bad experience happens as a result of bad process (Hello Karen White) then attitudes strongly harden against that group. What are we going to do about the many (1 in 5 isn't it?) women who have experienced assault and rape, and are afraid to be in situations of vulnerability and undress where male bodied people are?

Do we need to think about wider concerns here like, if we change the boundaries of what 'woman' legally means to include men, then what happens to the sex protections in law for women? If we move around the definition of 'woman' to say nothing to do with biology at all, it's about expression of femininity - does that harm women and girls? Are all women feminine? Should they be? Are we actually incentivising women and especially girls that 'proper' and nice women are feminine, accepting of male choice above their own feelings and cool with getting naked with men watching them? Anything you could see that might go wrong with that?

If we slide into law that fixes that a male bodied person's right to choice, freedom from embarrassment and sense of self is more important than a female bodied person's right to choice, freedom from embarrassment and physical safety have we (re) fixed in law that female bodied people are innately subordinate and inferior to male bodied people and legally entitled to less consideration and provision?

I get why you see it the way that you do, but it's about understanding this is a much bigger, more complex issue and it's using the disability lingo and expectations in a way that legitimises and waves through things which as a society we must stop and talk about. Despite the efforts of people, including the speaker of the House of Commons, to avoid that happening. And think about why they want to stop this conversation instead of having it.

Ereshkigal · 15/09/2018 13:30

If we slide into law that fixes that a male bodied person's right to choice, freedom from embarrassment and sense of self is more important than a female bodied person's right to choice, freedom from embarrassment and physical safety have we (re) fixed in law that female bodied people are innately subordinate and inferior to male bodied people and legally entitled to less consideration and provision?

Yes.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 15/09/2018 14:01

great post knicknack

Chickenloverwoman · 15/09/2018 19:06

I do wish MN had a "like" or "thumbs up" button!

GColdtimer · 19/09/2018 12:20

Nothing from BG. Anyone else?

OP posts:
drspouse · 19/09/2018 12:51

I got something generic but it did seem to suggest "we are erm thinking about it" rather than "sod off you silly woman".
Not able to grab the text right now but I'll have a look later.

GColdtimer · 19/09/2018 13:07

Great. Thank you. I have had nothing but I think I upset Richard Evans by tying him up in knots in the phone. Only by using logic. Wasn't hard!

OP posts:
TeaForDad · 20/09/2018 08:00

No reply from BG yet, after 5 working days.
I will follow up next week

Wittow · 20/09/2018 10:34

I've sent him this email today and cc'd it to my DD's gymnastics club.

Dear Richard,

I am aware in the last few weeks or so that BG has produced a policy that I am concerned is dismissive of the needs of women and girls. It’s an inclusion policy about the needs of transgender people which I believe overrides the safeguarding rights of girls and young women.

My daughter attends a gymnastics class at name of club gymnastics in location. I pay BG membership for her to be able to attend these classes. It is renewable on the 30th September.

Before I am prepared to renew her membership I require answers to the following questions.

Can you explain how your 'Policy for the participation of trans people in gymnastics competition’, is not directly at odds with your safeguarding and compliance policies?

Why are the needs of trans people overriding the needs of young women and girls?

I want you to clarify if your policy allows that any male student or staff member can, based only on their say-so, access any female changing areas, toilets, showers. This is, in my opinion, a massive issue for the privacy and safety of the girls.

Was David Challenor involved in any way in the production of this policy?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 20/09/2018 16:16

A poor trans kid who is taking the seriously brave step of using different facilities deserves support rather than hatred. Boys do not dress up and pretend to be girls to sneak into their changing rooms.

How naive would you have to be to assume no boy would claim to be a girl if it puts him in with a bunch of naked or semi naked girls? Teenage boys are obsessed with sex and some of them will go to any lengths to satisfy their desires.

Busybarbara, transgirls doing things that embarrass girls in changing rooms has already happened a number times. There are several court cases about it in the US.

In one school in the US 200 girls walked out because they knew the character of the teenage transgirl (who had been in the same school as them as a boy for years) and didn't trust them in what were previously single sex spaces.

I won't link as they were under 18 when all this kicked off, but there was a telling news video in which the transgirl clearly wasn't wearing any underwear under a short circular skirt. Watching that blatant bobbing dick it was entirely obvious why their classmates felt uncomfortable.

But none of this is "hatred". It's down to common sense and to a care for the safety, privacy and dignity of girls.

CrackpotsArePots · 20/09/2018 16:23

You would think that gymnastic would be super, super hot on Safeguarding, wouldn't you, given the terrible abuses by coaches in other countries?

GColdtimer · 20/09/2018 20:22

I pointed that out crack pot when I called.

OP posts:
Ooforfoxsakeridesagain · 21/09/2018 12:12

I’ve now written to BG as well. Renewal email came today so have responded with my concerns.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/09/2018 12:40

You would think that gymnastic would be super, super hot on Safeguarding, wouldn't you, given the terrible abuses by coaches in other countries?

You would indeed. I have nothing to do with gymnastics but even I'm aware of the numerous scandals over the years.

kungfupannda · 21/09/2018 13:01

I'm horrified about this and will be speaking to our club to find out their views. My two older boys are gymnasts in a club that is mainly girls. I would imagine this is the case in most clubs, which means that these guidelines will affect the overwhelming majority of participants in the sport.

The only tiny saving grace in this is that gymnastics is probably one of the few sports where I can't imagine boys having an advantage over girls, given that the different disciplines are tailored to male/female physiology in many ways. In fact, it might be the only sport where girls could find that they actually have an advantage. I'd back our squad girls being able to transition to rings/high bar/parallel bars before I'd back our boys being able to pull off asymmetric bars and beam.

Maybe the girls should give it a go. The women's sport issue has been very one-way so far. I wonder what the reaction would be if girls suddenly took down the boys in a sport where boys are already a significant minority.

Flooffloof · 21/09/2018 15:09

Kungfu, do you mean the girls will "take out" the boys if they enter the changing room?
Would they "take out" men too or would they be cowed and uneasy but say nothing?
This ruling means boys, young men and adult men will be allowed, in fact welcomed into the girls changing room. And to report or say something will get the girls 're-educated. sounds fun yeah

drspouse · 25/09/2018 15:21

I got a reply, it's incredibly long but just fluff really. Lots of non-legal stuff (e.g "transsexual" when kids can't be transsexual").
I'll post bits but haven't the energy to deal with it now.

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