Racism threads.

[Cranberri]

Anyone else feel a bit uncomfortable with the spike in threads about racism? I don't mind a healthy debate about racism but many threads recently seem to have brought out the worst in people. Mnhq having to delete numerous comments due to racism. Ignorant or culturally unaware posters writing ridiculous posts that would simply not be accepted in day to day life. People claiming racism when it isn't.

I'm tired of it. Is anyone else tired of it? It's really draining...

Hi all,
We are reading this thread and responding to your individual reports and will take points on board.
Just to give some insight, though, we do very often get as many reports telling us to leave posts up "so that people can see" as we do asking for deletions. Hence the fact that we do sometimes appear to be erring on the side of caution, especially when what appears to be a new poster's apparently naive post is being "robustly debated" (indeed, we can think of a very recent conversation mentioned on this thread where the OP would have been banned twenty times over had MNHQ not held firm and given her the benefit of the doubt) or if it is a news story where the subject is racism itself.
We do try to allow freedom of speech but we absolutely draw a line between debate and racism and we would always delete a post that was racist. We have made several deletions and banned more than one poster from this thread alone, on the strength of their posting here and what we have observed in the background.

To get back to the point of the thread, as Dottie says at 2.45, there's another weird thread.

I commented and went back to it a minute ago and Poof! It was bloody weird.

Thank you @HopeMumsnet

Dottierichardson

It is really putting me off MN though, even less direct threads are starting to get to me, I noticed, for example, that more than one thread making negative comments about a transgender Labour officer were pulled by MNHQ but endless threads targetting Serena Williams as a means of making negative comments about black womenand that’s racism god forbid we offend a stright white man but black women fair game as usual in terms of trans men are having their way who knew

I have never stated on mumsnet what race I am although I have mentioned my children's race. Bizarre I think not.

Mumsnet is overwhelmingly middle class and white. Many refuse to see and acknowledge racism even when challenged as they can only see outside of their own narrow viewpoint. This is a generalisation and there are many lovely outliers on mumsnet also.

But you cannot tell from behind a keyboard. I come her to talk about a wide range of issues and I refuse to be pigeon holed by anyone because of my race.

Will people respond to my posts and threads if they know my race and will they respond differently? I think so, so I do not mention what race I am or what colour I am.

Maybe some of you will advance search me and try to guess, but to be accepted online without all of that is wonderful and it should be the same for everyone especially on an anonymous site like mumsnet.

But it is not like that because too many people have hidden racist viewpoints and agendas. I no longer believe in ignorance in this sense. Let's call it what it is.. Racism.

I haven't read the Serena thread as I knew it would make me angry. There are too many threads like this, every week on here.

It's usually just a veiled way to start attacking and being racist and black women in the public eye are an easy target.

There have been previous ones about Alexander Burke and Megan Markle so now I no longer read them at all.

I knew the Notting Hill carnival hating poster with the 4 year old racist son was a PBP. It was so obvious it was untrue. The person was using American English mixed in with poor UK English too. It’s so tedious.

Now we have people using alt-right terms such as ‘cultural marxism’.

They must be bored of 4-chan or are being paid to post BS on here.

Now we have people using alt-right terms such as ‘cultural marxism’.

I thought that when people started using the term SJW on this thread

I also hid the Serena thread as soon as I saw it because I knew it would quickly descend from being about her actions as an individual into being about her race and extrapolating that across all black women.

Now we have people using alt-right terms such as ‘cultural marxism’.

To be fair, that's a poster who has previously argued (well repeated slogans) that taxation is theft and that road building should be left to the free market.

I mostly gloss over people who speak in slogans from elsewhere but no denying it can be an effective derailing technique simply because its just a weird form of argument.

I'm honestly not referring to any current threads that I've seen but I think the apparent glut of racist threads are sometimes/often the work of trolls or wind up merchants. I think it must be too tempting to start a thread on a contentious issue and sit back and watch the bunfighting. It can't be difficult to pitch a thread in a way that makes the OP look innocent but that guarantees a big online fight.

Some posters just love to argue. I think it's how they get their kicks.

(Just to be absolutely clear, I am NOT referring to any particular thread or threads)

Cranberri not uncomfortable as such, as I expect it on any UK chat forum.

The last week has been terrible for it - post after post of outlandish stories that were really about "the black woman did that" then so many people piling in. Using the usual stereotypical words and terms, all vying to prove black women are the absolute worst. The patronising whitesplaining. The mob mentality piling in to outright dismiss experiences of racism. The you're mad/hysterical/crazy etc.

Can you imagine the mass- squealing if say a bunch of men landed in here and spoke to women like that? But they can dish it out to a woman and feel entirely justified because she is "different"...they don't see their selective bigotry at all.

I got into responding for a bit, then just stopped as was no longer bothered really. & I recalled most black posters don't bother with it. It just gives them what they want - your input and attention so they can pile in to take the piss. You don't have to go into the pit...

Let racists get their rocks off on here if they want to. Talk into an echo chamber. Don't engage or seek their understanding, you won't get it. & you sure as hell don't need their validation

Read "Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race" it's a great book.

Yeah, I stopped bothering to read any of those threads. And like you said I found I don't even care when yet another gollywog thread or whatever pops up. I'm not debating race with white people any more. I only clicked on this one and joined in bc it was a sensible anti-racist thread. Then the racists turned up 🙄

Christ there are some funny posts on this thread. I’m not going to wade in with definitions and opinions but some posters make me very nervous. I wouldn’t want to discuss ANYTHING with opinionated self-righteous, judgmental people like this. Not even fruitcake.

I recently reported a thread to MNHQ who replied saying that it was best left up to be "robustly argued". It isn't the job of people of colour to educate the ignorant!

Exactly.

@hopemumsnet I don’t quite get it. If they are breaching talk guidelines and is racist why wouldn’t you ban a poster/ delete a post? Who are these people telling you they should remain?

I think there are posters from 4Chan and the like who have trolling competitions. And keep score: most posts, most deleted posts, some form of thread bingo in response to their OP.

I'm not debating race with white people any more. I only clicked on this one and joined in bc it was a sensible anti-racist thread.

I get what you mean but sometimes when I think of the number of possible lurkers who may take stuff on face value I find it hard not to wade in, although I'm now trying just to post links or quotations from materials that contradict racist claims, rather than actually engage.

Also sometimes it's not as simple as dealing with people who are actually intentionally discriminatory but more unaware and that's when I get conflicted. I was on a regular thread, overwhelming majority really, really nice posters but a couple of times issues about race and representation came up that made me uncomfortable. I raised this the first time but could see I felt that I was making some of the posters uncomfortable. I felt terrible about that as I liked them. The second time something came up, I thought about talking about it but in the end decided it was easier to leave that group, which was a shame. I couldn't see how I could raise certain issues without making some people uncomfortable but couldn't continue on the basis of censoring myself, as that would make me feel uncomfortable. But it was clear that there was an underlying assumption from some posters that all posters were white, which I'm not, and would see things from a white perspective which I don't. I also didn't want to be the person who always brings up race, and I didn't want to be seen as responsible for educating people either. However that meant that I ended up unable to participate. Has anyone else had that issue?

@JamieFrasersArse

Are you saying that 'diva bitch' is a race-specific insult? That only white people can be a 'diva bitch' and that a black woman can never, never be a diva bitch? Racism is always wrong. But suggesting a person of colour can NEVER do wrong or be accused of anything only eggs it on. I was shocked at the Serena thread because of the amount of people that thought because someone is not white therefore they should get away with bad behaviour was unbelievable. Fact is, diva and bitch are NOT colour-specific. And it is indeed a fact, as seen over many, many years that Serena is a diva, that is a fact! And a nasty and vicious person. If she was white, she would be the exact same adjectives. The fact is, her behaviour was disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. And suggesting no one call her out on it just because she non-white, is wrong. That thread genuinely shocked me at how some people think.

'cultural marxism' is a fake term made up by far-right extremists that deem anything to the left of their far-right position to be 'leftist'. Usually terms like that are used by only far-right extremists who only think in extremes.

@salemblackcat what you are missing, although I’m not sure if that’s is intentional or not is that black women are dealt a load of crap that sometimes when they react it’s more than just that event that’s set it off. How many times do you have to watch someone getting away with something and then you are punished for someone else’s actions which the other person got away with?
It’s ridiculous the amount of people who don’t ever try to see things from another persons perspective. Her behaviour wasn’t perfect but why should Serena be held to a higher standard than her male and white competitors? Honestly she shouldn’t.
To counter your point @salem I couldn’t believe the amount of people who happily accepted the OP’s daughter didn’t know the Little’s boys name on a recent thread, or more to the point they couldn’t see why the DD couldn’t ask for his name. He was just a black boy. Now tell me that wouldn’t wear thin...

www.amazon.co.uk/Longer-Talking-White-People-About/dp/1408870584/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ref=plSrch&keywords=why+im+no+longer+talking+to+white+people+about+race&dpPl=1&dpID=41fXxsgYp3L&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1536928126&sr=8-1

A great read. Aside from that -

Really - it's futile to respond to the dog-whistling of people who are insistently racist. Who are adamant in justifying racist incidents, invalidating and minimising the experiences of victims of racism.

Upholding casual racism. Faux naivety 'I don't understand, you HAVE to explain'.

Selectively 'unseeing' racist talk, imagery and descriptions, and expecting victims of racism to be beholden to whatever goalpost shifting 'nice and appropriate and calm' behaviour they decide. Which could change any amount of times in a week as the behaviour will never ever be 'good enough'

The audacity to believe that due to their racist posturing and antagonistic speaking and writing style, they're owed an explanation regarding racism (which they wouldn't accept anyway).

No - racists and bigots aren't owed a thing. Direct them to Google they can stick questions in search engine if they (supposedly) want explanations of this or that can't they.

MN is at the stage where it could have a separate board titled "Racists" to save the pestilence spilling all over the place

@Faithless12 "How many times do you have to watch someone getting away with something and then you are punished for someone else’s actions which the other person got away with? "

But you are missing the point that it has been proven others have NOT gone unpunished for the same things she did. The whole thing falls apart because it is a false premise to begin with. There have been many articles posted all around the world in the recent week proving how the men have had the same punishment and even worse than she did, ditto for their skin colour. So it's a false premise to begin with. And hence there is no justification for her behaviour, and no grounds to excuse it whether it be on gender or on skin. It was a false premise from the start and proven so.

Just had a look at the Serena Williams thread. Loads of posters that think just because she's a BAME women that the rules of her sport shouldn't apply to her.