Racism threads.

[Cranberri]

Anyone else feel a bit uncomfortable with the spike in threads about racism? I don't mind a healthy debate about racism but many threads recently seem to have brought out the worst in people. Mnhq having to delete numerous comments due to racism. Ignorant or culturally unaware posters writing ridiculous posts that would simply not be accepted in day to day life. People claiming racism when it isn't.

I'm tired of it. Is anyone else tired of it? It's really draining...

Thank you for the information. However despite the terms US origins it does not mean it has to be applied to the UK or that we in the UK must use it. As shown by the article below it does not neccesserily sit comfortably with everyone.

I say this not to suggest people cannot use the term if they wish to, but to highlight the fact that not everyone will choose to and do so for a variety of reasons as shown below.
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.independent.co.uk/voices/black-women-people-of-colour-racism-beyonce-coachella-black-lives-matter-a8316561.html%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwjX7IOBg8DdAhVK_qQKHbEMCQkQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw17MHC9RwbCPnqzFN-w80Jf&ampcf=1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.independent.co.uk/voices/black-women-people-of-colour-racism-beyonce-coachella-black-lives-matter-a8316561.html%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwjX7IOBg8DdAhVK_qQKHbEMCQkQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw17MHC9RwbCPnqzFN-w80Jf&ampcf=1

I prefer to be described as brown (which is what I am), but I guess black will do. It does sound so dark and sinister full of negativity, though.

,*

I'm not making the statement that it "has been proven" that men get the same treatment. Salem is. sounds like you can't then @C8H

Yet another fake racism thread was started tonight 🙄

“Scarecrow” “golly gosh” how can they be anything other little than a construct to generate racist comments?

MNHQ are actually taking action this time. I wonder what has changed

However despite the terms US origins it does not mean it has to be applied to the UK or that we in the UK must use it. As shown by the article below it does not neccesserily sit comfortably with everyone

Happy to take that on board, as long as it's clear that it's not a reproduction of a term used to 'other' BAME people - a term which also doesn't sit comfortably with everyone. I don't see, personally, a problem with something originating outside the UK. After all Maya Angelou, Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, James Baldwin, George Jackson, Angela Davis all are from the US but their work had (and in many instances) continues to have an influence on understandings of race, racialised discourse beyond national boundaries. If it hadn't been for their work in my formative years there would have been practically nothing available to read that challenged mainstream representations of race, or which centred people who were not white.

Also there has been a discussion about how threads on Serena Williams relate to opening up spaces for racists to denigrate black women. If we start rigorously enforcing national boundaries then presumably there are those who could argue that Serena Williams is irrelevant as she is not British.

One of the other things that hasn't come up is the plethora of posts ostensibly about the 'burka' many, perhaps all, of which are often used to promote Islamophobia and to air racist views that could not be so overt in other contexts - because many of the posters assume that Muslim women are not 'white' and often not 'British'. A lot of comments about 'we' and 'our culture' which actually mean 'white' culture, assumptions that culture is monolithically 'white' culture and so on...

@Dottierichardson depending on your age there have been plenty of black authors around who spoke of the experience of people who built the BAME communities within the UK as well as those who wrote of the experiences of those who lived here going as far back as the Romans. Experiences which lead to a self identification and link to a cultural heritage that is a little different to that of the US.

These authors chronicle a history of oppresion that leads us to the current state of racism in the UK which is subtly different to that of the US, equally incidious in its nature but in a different way as it is harder to pin down due to it subtle approach couched in the faux naivity present in many of the racist post that emerge on mumset.

Authors such as Sam Selvon who wrote the Lonely Londoners or Joan Riley- the Unbelonging for a start. Poets like Lindon kwesi Johnson or Benjamin Zephaniah. Narratives of those black peole living during the era of abolition in the UK such as Mary Prince and Olandah Equiano. Historians and academics like Paul Gilroy, CLR James and Stuart Halls famed book- there aint no black in the union jack to name a few of my favourites many of whom wrote during or before the time of the authors you mention.

If we are to challenge racism in the UK I think it is neccessery to understand its structure and formation rather than use a model based on the US experience.

@Rosetintedglasses454 I agree, lots of people hide behind the fact the UK isn’t as bad as the US. Which is a lie, we aren’t better we are different.

One of the other things that hasn't come up is the plethora of posts ostensibly about the 'burka' many, perhaps all, of which are often used to promote Islamophobia and to air racist views that could not be so overt in other contexts - because many of the posters assume that Muslim women are not 'white' and often not 'British'. A lot of comments about 'we' and 'our culture' which actually mean 'white' culture, assumptions that culture is monolithically 'white' culture and so on...

On that basis @Dottie no one is allowed to challenge anything from a different culture for fear of being branded way-cist.

Also the "feminism is bad for women" post (!!!)
Some people are just dicks OP 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm not making the statement that it "has been proven" that men get the same treatment. Salem is
sounds like you can't then @C8H**

1. When you want to @ someone you need to put the full name after the @ or they don't get notified. More saliently if there were a C8H on the forum they would get notified.

2. Salem made the assertion that men have been proven to be punished as much if not more so. Therefore its for Salem to back it up, not for me to prove the negative.

3. Logic for Dummies can be found in any major bookstore.

Rosetintedglasses454 Thank you for all of those names! I’m adding them to my reading list ASAP. Only a couple stood out to me

I find it interesting that you feel uncomfortable about it.
I think this says alot about society in general actually.
I think we need to be faced with the things that make us uncomfortable. They're uncomfortable because they show an ugly side to humanity that we don't want to acknowledge exists.

I do it too. Don't get me wrong. I don't watch the news very much. I hate looking at the depressing state of the world.

I know I enjoyed at least one of those threads - it expanded my mind, helped me see things from a different perspective.

You could always, if you're not enjoying the debates about racism, click off the thread. That's the miracle of the internetz.

Rosetintedglasses454 thank you. I am aware of those people. I have met Linton more than once and did one of my dissertations with Gilroy as my supervisor. Since you seem more into educating other people of colour on what they should/shouldn't say or what their personal trajectories should/shouldn't be re: their understanding of themselves - rather than finding ways we can work together to combat racism on MN and respect mutual differences in position and analysis I can't be bothered to interact with you further. Perhaps you should move on to lecturing Jackie Kay, Daljit Nagra, and others - all of whom cite a range of writers/thinkers beyond national boundaries that influence/impact on their thinking and that they think others should read.

Oh dear im so embarrassed...

I didn't read further down the thread. Proper MN fail. Eesh, now I look awful...

It's not what I meant, people!

I thought this was going to be about threads where people have been pointing out racism and others have been shouting it down and saying "That's not racist"... despite it clearly being racist. I thought this was being posted from the 'it's not racist viewpoint.

Apologies OP. Scrambling to type my correction before I get flamed and buried.

Thing is though, there are lots of racist people around. Trump certainly hasn't helped - almost like it's given people with racist views a free ticket to express their racism at any given point.
I don't think we'll ever get rid of views like that. It spreads throughout the generations. I would like to think we can eradicate it... but I don't have high hopes.
All we can hope for is that by educating people, maybe we can open their eyes to it all.

On that basis @Dottie no one is allowed to challenge anything from a different culture for fear of being branded way-cist

Yes but the 'burka' threads on MN often seem to operate in the same way as the 'golliwog' threads, as a way of encouraging a particular brand of nationalistic, anti-Muslim racism - laced with comments such as, 'If they don't like our culture they shouldn't come here,' and so on...And equally sprinkled with liberal helpings of offensive stereotyping.

Dottierichardson its a shame that you have interpreted my post in that way.
You listed american authors to site similarities and I pointed out the existence of UK ones to higlight the differences.

I dont see that as lecturing I see that as emphasising a point.

Just because you dont like or agree with something doesnt mean you should throw your toys out the pram over it.

Moreover I suggest you read my previous posts as at no point have I demanded anyone approach the issue in any particular way I have quite simply expressed how I feel and why that is the case.

Since you seem more into educating other people of colour on what they should/shouldn't say or what their personal trajectories should/shouldn't be re: their understanding of themselves - rather than finding ways we can work together to combat racism on MN and respect mutual differences in position and analysis I can't be bothered to interact with you further.

Think the goady, cliched response kind of proved my point.

Although at the moment trying to work out - since I specifically cited writers who influenced my 'formative years' - how a novel such as Sam Selvon's, though admirable as part of the literature of exile and the history of the Windrush generation would have been of interest to my 11 or 12 -year- old-self since - other than the woman who negotiates with shopkeepers (can't remember her name) - the majority of women in the novel are objectified or silent? Also not sure that my self growing up would have been able to appreciate Gilroy's reworking of things like Hegel's master slave narrative or Bakhtin...or follow Stuart Hall's take on cultural studies for that matter. Like most young adults I read what was available and accessible.

Also why do you assume I grew up in the UK?

Finally I cited writers that as I stated influenced my formative years, which is when I read the writers I mentioned i.e. in my early to late teens! I didn't say that there are no other writers since or before that relate to the issues under discussion, in factearlier on the threads I referenced Akala (Natives) and Afua Hirsch (British).