Secondary school uniform

[Bumbelinadance]

AIBU to say I just kind of feel the focus should be on educating children not their appearance . Ds just started secondary school Who decided a fully buttoned up to the top button shirt and tie was required
...? He hates how that feels all day. Restricting !
He is in a regular state school , yet his uniform was so expensive my parents Kindly stepped in

Surely it up up to the children to decide what path they go down as adults surely ?They can suit it and boot it if they choose to go into a profession where a certain dress code is required .
Comfortable trousers or joggers / skirts if preferred at a reasonable price and a school logo jumper might shift the focus from appearance to learning

I am all for a ban on designer logos and trainers to avoid a haves / have nots scenario
But I really dont get the English uniform obsession

Also I feel hugely amazed by our teachers and support them fully , feel the profession like most of our key workers ( ambulance drivers, nurses , police etc) is underpaid and under appreciated
But I don’t think their job should be to enforce a terribly old fashioned view that an 11 year old should wear a blazer. I also feel very strongly my child should be allowed to express himself as he wishes with his hairstyle and dress PROVIDED HE REMAINS POLITE AND RESPECTFUL TO HIS TEACHERS / ADULTS and meets the schools expectations with academic effort and behaviour
If he wants tramlines in his hair how does that affect whether he gets an a or a d grade ..?

They are there to learn
Achieve their potential
Be told they can be an astronaught if they work hard enough
Not told their appearance defines them

It isn’t really accepted in the workplace so why is it happening in our schools ...?

Myfrei Ds in the USA send their kids to school in clothes they are comfortable in ,so they can focus on learning

I don't understand this country's obsession with uniform.

Dd has spd and uniform and school shoes are a constant source of stress for us both.

What makes me laugh is that on mufti days the kids all wear the same clothes/styles anyway.

Having worked in different educational settings from relaxed to strict uniform codes, the stricter codes have better attitude to learning...it sets the tone. I even worked in a school that was basically non uniform, then became uniform in the next academic year. The change in behaviour was significant. They acted much more maturely and sensibly in uniform. It is a very good thing. Also, when I was at school I was glad of uniform. It made me equal to everyone else. You couldn’t tell that my family didn’t have much money, completely level playing field. That is really important. Non uniform is a massive distraction to young people. I would fully endorse a strict uniform policy. Can I ask why you didn’t send your child to a school with more relaxed uniform that matches more with your ideas. When you send your child to a school, you really should be supporting (for the most part) their policies, if not, you’d be better off sending them somewhere else

Eemamc where I live there are no schools with no uniform and most schools have a far stricter uniform policy than ours. They are all worse schools, by the way - so much for strict uniform being better...

This idea that you can just up sticks and go to a school that suits you is an illusion. And home educating isn't feasible for most - because we have to work! In the real world

I support our school's policies and my DDs have always worn correct uniform. I still loathe uniform and always will.

If only uniform did have the magical properties which are ascribed to it! Bullying would be at an end, discipline in schools would be perfect. Academic outcomes would soar and our black polyester clad students would be the envy of the world.

In reality, we are stuck with strict school uniforms because it is now part of the script that prescription works best. Students have to be told what to wear, what to eat, how to cut their hair, when to go to the toilet.

People who run schools are frightened to move away from this script because they dont know any different.

I hate the fa g girls are made to wear shirts done up to the top and ties. (Don't have a girl). It's not practice or comfortable for bustier girls and sits uncomfortably and makes them self conscious.

And I don't know if 1 single job roll that they could be preparing these girls for!

Boys and shirt/tie is different as men will find that dress code in the world of work. Not as many jobs as pupils but there's at least logic!

And I think the reason when kids start college they go in all dressed up to the nines at first is because of the years of oppression being made to wear impractical polyester shit.

They soon all settle into simple and comfortable and practice and smart - ironically like in their world of work.

I think polo s t shirts and v neck sweaters with a logo are fine for school. I'm not against uniform as agree with the belonging to a community theory.

However I don't think being told "Black trouser, no denim, skinnies, straight leg or flares" has any value.

Why not just black trousers, school polo and jumper? It's still a uniform?

Pointy same here.

6 schools.

2 with relaxed uniform of polo and jumper.

Well above average results.

2 uniform but more relaxed and practice.

Average results.

2 very strict and enforcing through constant punishment. And I mean there is nothing relaxed about their uniform.

Both performing well below.

Some schools just get t right and have no inform issues as they get the respect of the kids who wear it properly because they feel valued and respect works both ways.

Also, when I was at school I was glad of uniform. It made me equal to everyone else. You couldn’t tell that my family didn’t have much money, completely level playing field.

Did you never socialise with your classmates outside school? Did you never go to each other's houses? Seeing where people live surely gives you more idea of who has money and who does not!

Can I ask why you didn’t send your child to a school with more relaxed uniform that matches more with your ideas.

For someone who works in education I'm surprised you don't have a better idea of how school admissions works. Parents only have very limited choice from what is aavailable.

In our case it was a Hobson's choice of one school in special measures. Shortly after DD1 joined the school a new head was appointed and introduced the now ubiquitous black polyester blazer.

Instead of turning the school around he led the school on a polyester clad charge to the very bottom of the school league tables and back into special measures.

I can see the advantage in terms of equalising, but school uniform is very impractical and uncomfortable. It’s a form of power and control. I don’t approve with the way it’s used. The argument that some jobs require you to wear a suit is daft. Some jobs require you to wear scrubs but we don’t make children wear them.

Some schools with uniforms will be bad, some schools without uniform will be good. But on average uniform is one tool that helps to improve students achievement. On its own it wont make a difference but in conjunction with other measures it can.

But on average uniform is one tool that helps to improve students achievement.

Anything other than anecdotes to back that up?

I have to disagree with you OP. Uniforms are important because; they teach children the importance of dressing smartly as they will have to do to go to work (in most places), they stop children fussing over whether they have the "right" clothes and the latest stuff, they stop annoying parents coming up to complain that their darlings designer t-shirt made from pixie dust got ruined by so-and-so, they promote equality, they take away the chance of being bullied for not having the "right" clothes, they stop children from spending ages in the toilet checking that they look good and that their hair is still "in place". And many people say that it doesn't affect their learning, well I disagree. How do you expect a child to concentrate if they're always worrying over what they're wearing? And then there's the fight before school over what they're going to wear that day. So glad we have uniforms.

Goth all your arguments in favour of uniform have already been thoroughly refuted upthread.

There is no research evidence that uniform improves school outcomes.

If you want a totally even playing field best stop talk about holidays, hobbies, weekend activities etc.

Strict uniform does nothing but stamp out individuality. I detest it.

My son’s primary school thankfully has a reasonable one but I’m dreading high school and all the nonsense.

I feel there should be a uniform so the focus isn’t on clothes, but it should be available at a wide range of places, without logos being a necessity. £15 for a school polo when I could pay £8 for 3 and be done with it.

I totally disagree that uniform teaches students to dress smartly. What it does is teach students to dress according to a set of very narrow rules. The student doesnt need to be clean, tidy, laundered. All they need to do is wear the 'right' clothes.

If anything I think uniform ill prepares students for the workplace where they will have to work out for themselves what is appropriate. The only workplaces I know of which insists on such a prescriptive but poor quality uniform are supermarkets. At least they have the saving grace of actually providing it for their staff to wear.

I haven't RTFT so apologies if I have ignored people's points.

I can see the point of uniforms from the point of view of not having to worry about what to wear / no stress about looking cool or having the right clothes. However, there is no need for all this expensive uniform in state secondary schools. Everything has to be logoed and specfic to the school. I can't see what would be wrong with plain black trousers/skirt (length/style specified if necessary), plain white shirts and a logo jumper /tie. As far as PE kit is concerned, unless the child is going to represent the school I can't see the need for logo kit. Why not just require plain black shorts and white t-shirt for school PE. Then have a stock of logoed kit in various sizes which can be used by children on school teams.

The argument about preparing kids for uniforms or smart dress in the workplace is frankly nonsense. The vast majority of sixth forms and colleges, and ALL universities have no dress codes at all, so after spending from ages 4 to 16 dressed in smart clothes they then have two to six years of getting used to wearing whatever the hell they like before going into a workplace. Plus in my experience workplaces generally are getting less formal not more formal.

As someone else said, I don't think it stops bullying as bullies will always find some reason to pick on someone, and since schools can't specify trainer brands for PE, there will still be people wearing Adidas and others wearing Tescos.

Oh and as for the nonsense about children learning better in uniform... what about all those high achieving schools and children in practically every country in Europe, America ... er the world in general? Not wearing uniform doesn't seem to be holding them back. I have no evidence but I'm pretty damn sure British kids aren't any more advanced than other developed countries as a result of our obsession with uniform and our need to test infants to within in an inch of their lives. OK, I digress, don't get me started.

This is about the contempt we have for children and teens in this country. We are infantilizing them ever more as the years go by and we then pay the price by having vastly immature teens and 20 something's. We continually judge that young people are incapable of making 'good' decisions and then they live up to our expectations. 15 year olds in this country frequently are treated like and thus behave like 6 or 7 year olds in other countries and cultures.

And at anyone who says uniform fosters a sense of belonging. True belonging has absolutely zero to do with clothes and children know this.

Pros and cons. But I have a 14 year old who has always worn it. When he was little he seemed to love being part of the ‘club,’ and his uniform was a big deal for him. Now I just think it’s cheaper to have it. We can buy most of it except tie and sports kit from Tesco if we want. So I reckon it’s saving me a fortune on clothes since he wears it 5 days a week. And it’s hard wearing too. On second blazer only in four years. Result!

"The stress I felt at the wear what you want days. Agonising on whether or not my outfit was 'cool' enough (it wasn't) my shoes acceptable (they weren't)"

God, yes, I used to DREAD them. However, there might have been a bit less pressure if every day was no uniform. We weren't even that poor, but all my clothes were from jumble sales or hand-me-downs. The 'best' things knitted by my grandmother and not cool.
I don't remember being uncomfortable in shirt and tie - maybe some people are tying them too tight?
After me, my younger brothers had a casual uniform and the trend was for tracksuit-type things. I thought then that the old uniform was dead, but it must have been popular because it seems to have been revived (I actually think smart uniform was used as a marker of a 'good school' so then every school had to copy).

As others have said, there are dress codes in the workplace so it's something that we have to get used to.

" what about all those high achieving schools and children in practically every country in Europe, America ... er the world in general?"

You mentioned Europe and America. There are other continents. Plenty of uniforms in Africa and Asia and I wouldn't say that Asian schoolchildren underperform.

I do think schools waste too much time focusing on uniform rules. DD left school this year. The uniform rules were very strict in years 7 - 11. They had a dress code for 6th form, but the girls pretty much dressed the same anyway - black skinny jeans, boots or loafers, shirt and or jumper. It didn't affect DD's education as she ended up with an excellent set of GCSEs and a spectacular set of A levels.