Secondary school uniform

[Bumbelinadance]

AIBU to say I just kind of feel the focus should be on educating children not their appearance . Ds just started secondary school Who decided a fully buttoned up to the top button shirt and tie was required
...? He hates how that feels all day. Restricting !
He is in a regular state school , yet his uniform was so expensive my parents Kindly stepped in

Surely it up up to the children to decide what path they go down as adults surely ?They can suit it and boot it if they choose to go into a profession where a certain dress code is required .
Comfortable trousers or joggers / skirts if preferred at a reasonable price and a school logo jumper might shift the focus from appearance to learning

I am all for a ban on designer logos and trainers to avoid a haves / have nots scenario
But I really dont get the English uniform obsession

Also I feel hugely amazed by our teachers and support them fully , feel the profession like most of our key workers ( ambulance drivers, nurses , police etc) is underpaid and under appreciated
But I don’t think their job should be to enforce a terribly old fashioned view that an 11 year old should wear a blazer. I also feel very strongly my child should be allowed to express himself as he wishes with his hairstyle and dress PROVIDED HE REMAINS POLITE AND RESPECTFUL TO HIS TEACHERS / ADULTS and meets the schools expectations with academic effort and behaviour
If he wants tramlines in his hair how does that affect whether he gets an a or a d grade ..?

They are there to learn
Achieve their potential
Be told they can be an astronaught if they work hard enough
Not told their appearance defines them

It isn’t really accepted in the workplace so why is it happening in our schools ...?

Myfrei Ds in the USA send their kids to school in clothes they are comfortable in ,so they can focus on learning

I think there are huge cultural differences between the US an Europe though... We had none of that.

Isent at our school the coolness ends halfway through Yr 10 when kids realise that these are the kids who are going to massively fail their GCSEs... A lot of growing up happens in Yr 10.

actually Canada.

I'm sure it varies from place to place and school to school, though. And probably person to person!

It wasn't something that I was hugely a part of, really, being generally unfashionable, and much more into academics. But it was certainly noticeable . And I did wish for the conformity that uniform would have provided (though I was a rule follower, and I'm sure would have been equally uncool as a result of that!). It did feel that it would have reduced the endless worrying about it all, planning what to wear, competition, comments, etc.

And yes, all sort of other things like drinking or smoking or whatever to distinguish the cool gang as well, of course. I'm sure there will always be one. I'd just have liked the relief of not having to worry about whether my clothes were right/acceptable/wrong etc

I think there are probably a lot of teenagers like you - but equally there are a lot of teenagers like my DCs, who couldn't give a flying fuck about who's wearing what and who's cool and who isn't. There will always be 'tribes' at schools. If schools deal with that appropriately, you don't need uniform. And I don't think we should be teaching our children that they can 'hide' behind a uniform or conformity, because that will not help them in real life.

I think there are huge cultural differences between the US an Europe though... We had none of that.

We have none of it in our local US schools either.

Surely it would be even more of a shock when they start work had they not worn uniform and allowed to wee the very moment they need to?

And yet millions of people around the world go into the world of work and wear uniforms perfectly successfully without 13 years of practice.

Yes beksyt. Their school brought in 3 hr lessons. And no issue for my dd1 who works in a restaurant wears a uniform and is allowed to the loo when she needs to.
She hasnt worn s uniform for 3 years but its no shock to her shes at work to earn money she chose that. No child has chosen to go to school and be forced to conform to silly ott standards. No job has ever stipulated my daughter cant have a certain hairstyle etc.

No child has chosen to go to school and be forced to conform to silly ott standards
That's a silly thing to say, no child has chosen to be born and be forced to conform to the parents standards.

It doesn't seem to bother the school when they have non uniform day so that each kid pays a quid to boost the school coffers.

Yanbu. We live in a country where only private schools have uniform. The DCs go to a wonderfully diverse school. I have never had or heard of an issue with what kids wear to school. No one thinks about it. Discipline is good, and they all feel a great sense of belonging at their school because those things are cultivated by other things and ha e nothing to do with uniform.

In contrast I went to a school in the UK which had a very strict uniform. Sooo much time was taken up arguing over skirt lengths/colours of hair bands etc. not only was it an utter waste of time, it promoted really horrible relationships between pupils and teachers

Sooo much time was taken up arguing over skirt lengths/colours of hair bands etc. not only was it an utter waste of time, it promoted really horrible relationships between pupils and teachers So much time spent focusing on appearance it’s not surprising that the kids pick up on it and learn by the way the teachers behave - picking on children who look different.

Uniforms are awful. I really would not mind if the clothes were either comfortable or fit for purpose and preferably both but they really aren't.

DD's primary had a polo and sweatshirt etc sort of uniform but it didn't look smart (white polo shirts worn by children are never going to remain white, newsflash), it wasn't comfortable because how are nasty synthetic teflon coated trousers and skirts ever going to be comfortable, and it wasn't fit for purpose because it was significantly too warm or too cold for quite a lot of the year.

I opted out and bought DD grey cords (supposed to be banned but much nicer to wear on a number of levels than the teflon trousers and nobody ever said anything directly) and nice non-school cardigans in the school colour and suffered the manky polo shirts. There was a particularly mad bit where they introduced a school fleece (which seemed quite sensible for winter as a warm layer and spring/autumn as a jacket). But then they banned the fleece for indoor wear and would not allow it to be worn as a jacket on its own. I still don't know what the point of it was!

They also told the children during a heatwave that sandals weren't allowed (swiftly squashed by a number of parents pointing out that this was completely unreasonable) and polo shirts should be tucked in at all times and if untucked should be no longer than hip length. This is all very well if you're a skinny older kid who can wear a size smaller and a) not have acres of material needing to be tucked in and b) have the small size only come down to hip level anyway. DD was wearing age 6 polo shirts in her last year of primary so as not to have to tuck them in. She is quite skinny so that worked OK for her but it hardly seems fair on someone naturally larger to make them tuck in their polo shirt in 30 degree temperatures so they are even hotter and more uncomfortable than they already were! And what about the tiny 4 year olds who are already wearing the smallest size? I don't think they do age 2 polo shirts in the school uniform ranges.

Oh, and the time when they told children they should only wear white vests in case they showed through the polo shirts.

A bunch of utterly pointless restrictions that did nothing for team spirit (in fact the reverse) and caused parents pointless headaches trying to negotiate it all.

DD left primary this summer and is now at a school with no uniform and it has been an absolute breath of fresh air. She just goes to school in jeans, a T shirt and a hoodie or jumper. No drama. No issues. The only things we have to comply with are no earrings in PE lessons (completely reasonable and not an issue for us anyway) and closed toe shoes in science labs. They are trusting the children to make appropriate choices and I am all for this approach which seems much more equitable and likely to produce good results than petty and draconian rules imposed from on high.

I think there were many important lessons in school uniform where I went. Attention to detail and how one presents oneself is important in a way I certainly did not comprehend at first. By ten years post school it was notable already that the soft skills of being able to be charming, fun to work with, and immaculately presented were seemingly better predictors of financial success than grades.

Nobody I know from school has gone on to work in a uniformed role bar a few who went to sandhurst, but the social uniforms of professional attire and smart casual where appropriate are important in selling yourself.

We didn't have a hugely prescriptive uniform past year 11, at 6th form any dark suit paired with suitable shoes, shirt, and school tie of any type you were entitled to wear was accepted. In the lower years single or double breasting, black navy or blue were accepted, iron on or embroidered school crest. It could be done on more or less any budget especially if one used the schools own second hand uniform shop.

I really don't understand this idea that young adults aren't compos mentis enough to realise that they need to present themselves differently at work than they might have done as children.

I went to a non-uniform secondary school and absolutely have never had a problem with dressing myself appropriately for work. In fact, it's probably easier to do so if you've spent your school days selecting clothes that will be appropriate for the environment and activities, rather than being told what to wear. You are already halfway there.

If uniforms are important, I wonder why universities don't have them? After all, children who go to university are probably more likely to have to wear smart clothes for work than children who don't. And yet no universities seem to think that uniform is important. Literally not one, worldwide.

Glaciferous i like your thinking.
They learn all the same to uniform or not. Dd1 still learnt at college and infact was much more focused than she was at school. Id say home schooling was the best thing i ever did for her!!

Look, the point is that school uniform is a good thing and it’s here to stay. We can all have a bloody rant about self expression lalala
Ffs get a fucking grip here.
It’s absolutely fucking disgraceful that anyone should say that an Afro is not acceptable
It’s also unacceptable that anyone tells me that my very privileged children are not allowed to wear the uniform that they are required to wear to attend the school that I pay for having worked my arse off all my life to make sure my kids have a chance.

Signal it's true, your right, I've seen it sadly.
Worst school locally has a reputation for the most amount of horrendous bullying over what kids look like and the bags and shoes and the kids dress like doing to a nightclub to hang at the park at the weekend.

In school they isolate for anything and everything. My friends DD was isolated for 8 days for having a fake tan she'd had done at a salon for a competition. It wasn't even that noticeable (looked natural and was June!). School even admitted she just looked like the other kids who'd naturally tanned during the heatwave but it wasn't her 'natural colour'. They also admitted they hadn't actually paid too much notice but heard DD telling friends it was a Salon job and 'that's against their rules'.

I don't know what we can do though to stop these autocratic academy institutions that literally want 1000 clones who don't move rock or speak from 8.20-2.30 everyday.

That's not the real world and once released from school to post 16 these children are having MH crisises - because they've never learnt to think for themselves or the skills of interpretation of meaning.

Universities don't because they're entirely different organisations, with different purposes, needs, approaches, and selection for entry. I think that it's an entirely specious comparison.

Uniform is a thing, I disagree that it is a good thing.

Is it here to stay? In some form, probably.

Introducing strict uniforms was originally done as part of wide ranging changes introduced by super heads to turn around failing schools. The big changes were about how these schools were run. The uniform was the only visible thing so that was what was latched onto in the media.

The schools where these changes were originally introduced were very different from the majority of schools. These were inner city schools in areas with major gang problems. The schools had become caught up in this. The changes introduced were about making the schools separate from the problems being experienced on the streets outside the schools. The aim was to give students opportunities beyond their current environment.

Unfortunately lesser heads saw the uniform change as a quick fix to their own school problems. Got a discipline problem? Make the uniform strict enough and exclude the 'awkward squad' for wearing the wrong trousers.

It doesnt solve all the other myriad of problems caused by under-funding and poor management. But hey, at least all the students look identical so that has to be something doesnt it? Doesnt it?

If universities are completely different and that’s a specious comparison, I’d also argue that the inner city schools mentioned above and also elitist private schools like Eton and Roedean are completely different beasts to the local comp. The problem is that the DM reading Hyacinth Bucket types, (stamping their little hooves about what a disgrace polo shirts are), desperately aspire to Roedean and also like the sound of the lower classes being whipped into shape so they look naice and smart in their little matching uniforms. Class is such a big thing in the UK, (dare I say more so in England than elsewhere in the UK)? I think that’s what this ultimately comes down to. Appeasing the try hard, wannabe Etonians while also keeping the poor people in line. Perfect .

I have no doubt that it works on some level in schools with serious problems, if they roll out uniform ‘upgrades’ along with other measures. It instills a sense of pride etc. But who is to say that if the change was the complete opposite and they were allowed to wear their own clothes, there would not also be improvements in behaviour. A sense of pride and also giving the responsibility to the children and letting them choose for themselves. I actually think that generally, stricter uniform policies bring up more problems than solutions, if mumsnet is anything to go by.

My dcs go to non uniform schools, both primary and secondary. This is quite unusual in our city as most schools have a strict uniform policy. The children are allowed to have their hair any style or colour that they wish.
I disagree with school uniforms and think way too much emphasis is put on the length of skirts, trousers, types of shoes etc. I also find it unbelievable that children have to ask permission in some schools to remove their blazer if too hot or are not allowed to wear winter coats on top of blazers when entering the school grounds.
I don't think children need uniform at school to prepare them for the workplace, most are intelligent to understand that certain professions/jobs require them. Also that is paid employment so totally different to education.
Also the number of bullying related incidents in these schools is reported to be low, the children seem tolerant and accepting of each other.

I haven't read the full thread but agree with this:

The stress I felt at the wear what you want days. Agonising on whether or not my outfit was 'cool' enough (it wasn't) my shoes acceptable (they weren't) uniform is a leveller- there is no upmanship, fashion, or opportunity to abuse kids for their outfits. I fully support them for this reason.

I wore uniform from first to last day at school, blazer, the the lot as did my daughter. I don't see how the quality of education can be determined by whether a school has a uniform policy or not.

As for someone asking why don't universities have uniforms, why would they? You can't compare them with schools, it's a totally different ballgame. Yes you are there to learn, it's your option whether to attend or skip lectures, the onus to learn is your responsibility, you are in charge of how you study, no teacher to hand hold.

Look, the point is that school uniform is a good thing

In your opinion. Don't state opinion as fact, it's not a good look. There is no evidence that uniform by itself improves anything - because that isn't an experiment that you can do within the boundaries of what is ethical in research. So we will never know which of very many factors is actually the one that turns a school around - the new uniform, the improvement in pastoral care and behaviour support, the influx of new and better teachers, the setting up of outreach and after school activities. It's impossible to know, it's just that uniform is the most obviously visible.

I can't wait for the end of the school year when we can put DD2's blazers on our local selling page (we will be giving them away) and DD2 can go to 6th form where she can wear what she wants, as long as it's decent. I have spent exactly £0 on school clothes for DD1 since she started 6th form because she wears stuff she has already bought out of her 'civvies' clothing allowance. Job done.

GnomeDePlume

I could not agree with all your posts more.