AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

Been to Naples anyone?

It's a falling apart shithole from what I can see

I have - within the last few weeks - and it is a real shock after almost the rest of Italy. You know you're in trouble when there are armed security guards at the local equivalent of Lidl!

LOL I agree with you OP!
I do wonder what possesses someone to put carpet in a bathroom, but I've seen it so many times, there must be a reason people like it.

Don't agree about the bidet though... think it might just be a continental fetish thing ...

ItalianPoster

England is not a seismic country so you cannot compare this aspect - you do not know how well stuff would have been built her if it had had to withstand earthquakes. So don't compare apples and oranges.

Well, I live in NZ, which is, shall we say, geologically active. Rather more so than Italy.

And the first point I'd make is that NZ's building standards are woeful compared to the UK's. However, my second point is that there is absolutely no way that a typical Italian building could legally be constructed here.

If Christchurch had been made up of compact 4-story tenements constructed from masonry rather than wooden-framed bungalows and steel-framed high-rises then the death toll in 2011 would have been in the thousands.

Naples is all the better for being a complete shithole.
No where like it! And the food .... WOW.

Interesting thoughts in this thread!

I also didn’t understand the carpet thing, until years ago I spent my first winter ‘up north’ after I’d ripped the carpets out and restored the original floorboards in an old, draughty cottage. I’ve never been so cold! Now, I happily embrace the carpet but only in our living room. I’m still resistant to bedroom carpets, though!

Lack of ID cards was a big shock to me also. I just don’t understand what the big deal is. I can’t believe that you can go and vote, for example, without having to prove who you are. I still think they solve more problems than they create.

Surely you end up with a situation whereby some people are having to pay to get passports even though they have no intention of travelling, provisional drivers licenses with no desire to learn to drive a car simply to have a valid ID?

The only ‘cultural’ thing I haven’t adapted to is the beer. I have an agreement with my local corner shop who are kind enough to do a special order for me. I’m a very good customer! It’s tougher when you go out and have a choice of Carling or (warm) John Smiths. I developed a taste for gin instead but god how I miss a good beer!

I've had the children's menu thing all over - not just in the UK. I think there needs to be some middle ground between places that offer chicken-nuggets/beige and here where as much as they love kids, there's very little specific accommodation for them.

Agree totally. Mind you, I don’t remember being offered a chikdren’s menu as such, occasionally I’d get offered a plate of pasta with sugo but in the whole we would order from the regular menu and they’d just bring a smaller portion, or else I’d tell them she would share ours (when very small) and they’d bring her a plate.

I have noticed children’s menus creeping in, albeit in more touristy places, it’s probably due to demand from some tourists who are used to seeing it on menus at home.

I’ve always eaten really well in Rome, but then I’m nearly always with my Rome team who know where to eat and never go to the touristy places. I also find Rome cheap to eat out compared to Milan, even panini cost a lot more here.

OP you are right about leasehold too. Especially in relation to houses. Just why? Lawyers should advise their clients not to buy houses with leasehold in my view. And lenders should refuse to lend on them and then the scammers developers would have to change their policy about it.

Alles you are drinking in the wrong pub then. The choice of good beers these days is phenomenal. CAMRA is the most successful pressure group ever, and has done a lot to improve the beer quality in the UK.

LoniceraJaponica maybe our choice up here is restricted. I think we only have one CAMRA pub here (aside from Wetherspoon, and I’m not giving Brexit man any of my money!).

We went to a CAMRA beer festival a few years ago and some were pretty good but just too warm. Sorry!

1: I currently live in Belgium, and in a house with bidets. I use one to soak my feet and the other is stuffed full of my make up bag, as dh has hogged all the bathroom shelving. The last time I used a bidet in anger was just after giving birth as ds had scratched me on the way out. He is 23 next month!

If the l/l took the bloody bidets out, I could have a bathroom upboard!

2: ID cards. Dh is used to them as he has always had to carry one for work (HM Forces), but I hate not being able to pop across the road without one. When we had the mandatory police visit there was astonishment that the UK didn't have ID cards - how do you control your population was the question.

I went to change my address at the bank - have you told the Gemeente - we can't do anything until you've told them. I'd be very pissed off if my UK bank wouldn't change my address until I had proved I'd told the Local Authority. Too much inter linkage between the different parts of your life with an ID card.

4: Hard floors. They. drive. me. insane. I am sooo looking forward to moving back to the UK and putting my feet on carpet in the morning; being able to walk barefoot on carpet. I don't mind floorboards and rugs, but the tiled floors here, be they marble or very old terracotta as we have in the current house are not that welcoming.

6: My cats have caught more rats and mice in Belgium than they have in Cornwall.

8: You might like to read the AIBU school uniform thread. It's about getting the kids to realise that there are rules and dress codes that they will have to conform to. It's also about a corporate school identity and taking pride in that.

9: Mmmm. I live in a 1770s house in Belgium. The front door doesn't fir properly; we get draughts through some of the windows, and the kitchen floor gets wet with rain coming under the door if the wind is in the wrong direction. The walls aren't dead straight, but I like that, it adds charm, and makes it seem like a home as opposed to someone who thinks a home should have straight lines and look like a drawing from a geometry text book. Yuck. If a property is older it needs to breathe, and some draughts are a good thing.

I am dreaming of course that there are cave houses in Italy (Matera?) that don't seem to have straight lines?

Having lived in three houses in Belgium now, I have to say that the best constructed and most solid is the one from the late 1700s, as opposed to the one built for renting in the 1980s, and the renovated one from the 1930s. The electrics and plumbing in all three were and are very dodgy though. I can't get my head round having sockets in the bathrooms for the hair-drier! The 1770s house is solid, as is my 1837 house in the UK. Compared with my Mum's 1980s place, give me an older property with good thick walls any day.

Your whole take OP seems to be that the UK is not 'civilised'. Having lived in Belgium for 13 years now, I think the UK is very civilised, no weird practices such as 13 or 14th month payments; you get punished for speeding, and if you are banned, you are banned, not allowed just to have the ban when you are on holiday and won't be using the car anyway as In Flanders.

Shops are open every day in the UK. They are not shut on Mondays or at lunchtimes; we have managed in the UK to work out rotas, so that there are staff available at all times in the bank and the Post Office.

In the UK there is notice that a road is going to be shut. This is not the case in Belgium, where diversions suddenly spring up as there yet another fucking cycle race, and you then have to take a 20 minute detour to get home. Whole villages can have their access/egress restricted because of this. Too bad if you have something urgent to do.

It's a different culture, and I love it in the UK. It makes sense to me, presumably like Italy does to you, but doesn't to me.

LoniceraJaponica I also forgot to mention that the availability of Guinness over here is awesome so there’s always an option (haven’t been out since pregnancy - it’s easy to forget!).

Most people criticising ID cards, especially those saying they wouldn’t have helped with the Windrush scandal, do not understand how ID cards work. In most of the world, and in Italy, countries have ID cards AND a population register. Any child who is born Italian, whether in the country or abroad, gets registered at the consulate or town hall; foreigners who become resident in Italy get added to it, too; if they become Italian, their entry is amended to reflect citizenship. This means there is no uncertainty about who is and who isn’t a citizen. This means that, no, something like the Windrush scandal could not have happened in countries with ID cards and population registers.

I ask again: how do you prove British citizenship if you don’t have a passport, which is not compulsory? Being born in the country has no longer been sufficient since 1981. Let’s say that John was born in 1982, John’s son in 2000 and John’s grandchild in 2018. How on Earth do you prove that the grandchild is British if neither John nor his son have ever had a passport?? Most mnetters can’t conceive not having a passport, but this doesn’t mean that every British citizen does have one. In that case you’d have to analyse the status of John’s parents, ie the great-grandparents! What are the odds you don’t find all the documents? And what then?

I remember reading in a newspaper that reasoning with Brits about ID cards is like reasoning with Americans about gun control. Many comments here are proving this view right.

Note that this doesn’t mean Italy is not racist or treats immigrants fairly – far from that. It simply means that not having ID cards is idiotic. Most people don’t realise because they have always had passports and it’s no problem for them; but according to the latest census (webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160107124139/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_310441.pdf ) more than 18% of the UK-born resident population does not have a passport.

"Your nationality will also be noted on documents like your drivers licence or your child's birth certificate. Not entirely sure how Id cards will help."
@Racecardriver, are you talking about England? If so, you are factually wrong. Driving licences and birth certificates do NOT show nationality. Please do not post incorrect information. Not sure how id cards would help? Then please answer my question about how one would prove British citizenship without a passport, especially in the example I made.

Okay, not really qualified to post as I am Scottish, but can I just say I fucking love bidets and wish they were standard in British houses?

I agree but I think OP is using 'England' meaning UK.

"Also state schools in Italy are basically catholic. Yes, you can opt out of religion at school but thanks to the cuts, this means just being put in the corner of another overcrowded classroom - not really an alternative."

State schools are NOT Catholic in Italy. there is not a single religious State school. Most private schools are Catholic, and all Catholic schools are private. There is one hour per week of religious education. Shamefully, teachers of religious education are paid for by the State but chosen by the Church, which can and does discriminate against the divorced, the gay, etc.

The point about being put in the corner of an empty classroom if you decide to skip religious education may have been valid a while ago, not any more, at least outside of rural villages in the middle of nowhere; in fact, especially in large urban areas, it is now common for pupils who choose to skip it to be the majority.

Also, most State teachers have historically had very left-leaning tendencies, as right-wing politicians love to complain about. The Catholic church has an obnoxious influence in many aspects of Italian life, but I wouldn't say that applies to schools.

By the way, in case it wasn't clear enough, one thing I LOVE about England is that the country is much more open in terms of religious freedom; London has a muslim major, and most UK right-wing politicians do not try to curb religious freedoms (outside of Northern Ireland) or impose religious views on society. You have the odd posh multi-millionaire MP with a double-barreled surname who says abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape, but luckily that's not representative

"I agree but I think OP is using 'England' meaning UK."
No, I specifically said England because I have very limited knowledge and experience of the other UK countries.

Thanks OP. That makes a refreshing change.

"My London flat built in 1990 by a large developer has interior doors with gaps round the edges you can see light through when they're shut and some electrical sockets that are not perfectly straight. [...] the ceiling was not perfectly straight and level, [...]and the German supervisor ordered the kitchen splash-back tiling to be completely re-done because the grout lines were not absolutely perfect. The British owners could not see the problem."

Thanks! I was starting to think that I, and every European I have ever met in England, must have somehow maybe stumbled upon the only houses with crooked walls and doors in the whole country!

Many people got upset, but, interestingly, no one said that crooked walls and doors are rare.

To be clear, since it may have not been and I seem to have hit a nerve, I was talking about these "visual" things which are evident to someone who, like me, doesn't know the first thing about construction. It doesn't mean that English houses are structurally unsafe (I have no idea about that); as a non-expert, I can only comment on what is visually evident, and the prevalence of crooked doors and walls here, which are much rarer in the continent, is shocking to me and to most Europeans I have met here.

There are other countries that don't have ID cards, you know.

It may be exceptional for Europe, but there is actually a world outside Europe, y'know. Some parts of it are even quite wealthy.

The point about being put in the corner of an empty classroom if you decide to skip religious education may have been valid a while ago, not any more, at least outside of rural villages in the middle of nowhere; in fact, especially in large urban areas, it is now common for pupils who choose to skip it to be the majority.

No sorry OP, YOU are out of date. I have three children in Italian school in a large city in the North and almost everyone opts in to religion because there is no real alternative. When I said schools are Catholic I didn't mean literally. However, in practice they are - RE is only about Catholicism. No other religions are discussed in any depth.

Also I think that if you have been out of Italy for a decade you may not realise how drastic cuts to budgets have been. We have to provide everything right down to loo paper!

Tbf though probably not all cities are as useless as ours. We still have blackboard and chalk and the school doesn't even have email!

Sorry not read the full thread OP but in terms of differences can i just add drivers! Having just returned from italy i was gobsmacked at the complete lack of road safety i saw! Driving straight on to roundabouts without looking, reversing on to gain roads whilst chatting on mobiles, creating a magic '3rd lane' to overtake despite vehicles coming in opposite direction, parking at the junction to a roundabout and on 1 occasion on the roundabout!, driving nose to tail with car in front, overtaking at speed on blind bends.....

*main roads

"There are other countries that don't have ID cards, you know.

It may be exceptional for Europe, but there is actually a world outside Europe, y'know. Some parts of it are even quite wealthy."

Thank you for the insight - I had never thought of that till you enlightened me. Could you also please enlighten me on how Brits prove their citizenship without a passport, which is not compulsory, especially in the example I made about a kid born in 2018?