AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

Everywhere is fucked, Italian poster, just in slightly different ways.

"Everywhere is fucked, Italian poster, just in slightly different ways."

Yes and no. I get very angry when I hear this phrase in Italy (tutto il mondo è paese, which loosely translates to “the whole world is like your own town”) because it is typically used to downplay the severity of Italy’s problems and the need to do something about that. It’s one thing to be realistic and appreciate that nowhere is perfect and every place has some issues; it’s quite another to minimise your own problems and the need to do something about them. For clarity, I am not angry at you :) but at how this phrase is misused in Italy.

Every time there is a case of corruption elsewhere, you’ll hear this phrase everywhere in Italy. What that does is, like I said, minimise the severity of our problems. Why should Italy do something about corruption If, after all, the whole world is the same and corruption is everywhere? Except it’s not true, yes, there is corruption everywhere, but it’s dealt with differently; I don’t know, compare the MPs’ expense scandal in the UK vs the fact that the Northern League, one of the two parties running the country, must refund the Italian State 49 MILLION EUROS stolen in the past. And that’s just the first thing that comes to my mind, the examples are endless. Oh, and that was the same party whose catchphrase was “Roma ladrona”, i.e. Rome the big thief, because the rhetoric was that corrupt politicians in Rome were defrauding the rich and productive North.

Seriously? You mention crime, such as moped snatching in London compared to Italy...? We are talking a huge metropole with totally different crime statistics compared to most other UK areas. Rome does not exactly compare favourably either when it comes to robberies. Anyway, people snatching/kidnapping is kinda more of a concern for me...

Oh, dear, some people are so defensive that not a single word can be said without adding 10 pages of caveats and clarifications.

No, I was not saying that Italy is crime-free. Surely you have read my comments about Italian railway stations becoming no-go areas at night, or about how Italian girls would never take a night bus by themselves the way English girls can and do?

I was talking about moped-related crime, and specifically about throwing acid on the face of scooter riders to steal their scooters. This has happened multiple times in London. I am not aware of many such incidents in Italy. Snatch my wallet 10 times but please don't throw acid on my face - the former is not life-changing the way the latter can be.

Also, why do you talk about kidnapping? Rome and Naples are not Caracas; do you know of any cases of kidnappings? If you do , please elaborate - I shall be most interested since the Italian press has neglected to mention them. If you don't, maybe an apology for saying something factually incorrect is in order.

Doesn’t Italy endure an organisation called the Mafia? It’s a bit rich, in that case, to point the finger.

@Aspenfrost, it does? Really? I had no idea! Wow, thank you for enlightening me! I shall be forever grateful for bringing to my attention a piece of information I would have never ever had access to! Now, what is one to do with this invaluable piece of information, other than picking up an anatomy book to get inspiration on where to shove it?

Feck me! You know of no cases of kidnapping?! In Italy? Are you for real! It’s only the setting for one of the most infamous cases of all and a Mafia speciality. Granted while most are not as high profile as the Getty kidnapping, the wealthy tended to worry about that particularly in Italy. As for scooter crime, the Italians kinda invented that type of street robbery… As for acting all faux surprised and innocent about the reaction of other posters – this is a bit of a goady threat and many of your points are pretty preposterous and rather hypocritical, showing a very blinkered and rather ignorant attitude.

If you have read the Ferrante novels, neither the Mafia nor the kidnappings can be news to you, although I admit the kidnappings she is talking about happened in the 1970ties.

Not particularly related to the points in the OP, but as someone who used to live in Italy, and who returns there quite often, it's often struck me how tough Italian society is compared to the UK. We think of Italy as this laid-back land of la dolce vita but it really isn't like that at all. It's actually a pretty harsh society, at least outside of the family circle.

Some might disagree with me, but in my experience, the general expectation in the UK is that other people - be they random strangers, officials, shop assistants etc. - will be pleasant and will try to help you. That's not the case in Italy. I'm often struck by how rude and unhelpful so many people in Italy are - and yes I do speak good Italian. Of course in private, most Italians are wonderful. But there's a big distinction between private and public which doesn't really exist in the UK.

Italy is also a very conformist society, especially for women. Individualism really isn't encouraged, whether in dress, lifestyle or what you eat for dinner. Maybe it's just becuse it's what I'm used to, but for all the obvious charms of Italy, I reckon the UK is a much easier and more pleasant place to live.

Italian girls would never take a night bus by themselves the way English girls can and do?

I think this has a lot to do with how Italian women are raised to be risk averse and dependent on men (see above). When I lived in Italy I regularly took night buses alone and never had any problems.

Rome and Naples are not Caracas; do you know of any cases of kidnappings?

Not sure about kidnappings, but both cities are notorious for petty crime, certainly much worse than any comparably sized British city. You're not seriously claiming to be unaware of this?

Yes, the Getty case is older but still infamous due to the back story. But kidnapping is still a concern and frequently does not make the news, as many people pay up due to desperation and fear of the consequences for the loved ones. The Seventies were undoubtedly the heydays but it certainly is still going on. For someone who claims this is a light-hearted thread and who accuses other posters of being defensive for reacting to really daft and ill-informed comparisons, you are getting rather wound up. No apology for debunking some of your nonsense from me. I am not British and lived in a number of countries. I respect and accept idiosyncrasies of my host countries, rather than compiling ‘hate lists’…

@Temptress, yes, really, I am not aware of any cases of kidnappings over the last 15-20 years.

There was a period, in the ‘60s and ‘70s, with some high-profile cases happening in the ‘90s, as well, of rich entrepreneurs being kidnapped by bandits and organised crime to extort a ransom. In the ‘90s Italy passed a law, still in force, whereby the assets of the family of a kidnapped person get frozen while the investigation is ongoing – so the family cannot pay the ransom. I don’t know to what extent it was because of that law, to what extent because organised crime was making more money through other channels and didn’t want to attract undue attention (you don’t want the police searching “your” territory and disrupting you other, more profitable, activities), but those kind of kidnappings decreased substantially in the ‘80s (before this law) and mostly stopped in the ‘90s.

During the so-called years of lead, i.e. the years of communist and fascist terrorism, there were cases of politically motivated, terrorism-related kidnappings, the most famous being that of Aldo Moro, former Italian PM, kidnapped, and later murdered, by the Red Brigades in Rome.

Again, I am not aware of any cases of kidnappings over the last 15-20 years (which is not to say there has been none, I don’t know for sure, but I can say for sure that it’s not the phenomenon it once was). Again, if you are, please elaborate; otherwise, an apology for saying something factually inaccurate is in order. You see, whether one thing is “better” here or there is subjective; whether certain very specific events (kidnappings) still occur or not is, instead, rather factual.

@Temptress, you are saying that “kidnapping is still a concern” and that “it certainly is still going on”. The least you could do is explain why you are so certain and how you have learnt of all these cases which I, a regular reader of the Italian press, have missed. I am sure you know what you are talking about and are not spreading fake news so I’m looking forward to learning about these cases.

Agree, IcedPurple. People think the whole of Italy is like the Dolmio advert. North Italians are at best curt, often rude and very unsmiley. If you go in the bank/post office/town hall etc etc you will be met with jobsworth attitudes and a "not my problem" mindset. And woe betide you if you want information at a train station. I got very lost once and in spite of being able to speak quite clearly, got told to "Look at the board" by the man in the booth and then when I asked again I was told to Go F* myself . Can you imagine tolerating that in the UK? You'd have their guts for garters, but in Italy you take it on the chin.

@IrmaFayLear

Exactly. Things aren't so bad in the south, but from Rome upwards attitudes to customer service remind me of travelling in Eastern Europe in the immediate post-communist days!

I put a lot of it down to the obsession with bella figura. The attitude seems to be 'I may have a humble job but I'm just as important as you and am under no obligation to help.' Similar attitudes prevail in France, from what I'm told, but the French, unlike the Italians, have a repuation for rudeness so vistors come prepared!

“I think this has a lot to do with how Italian women are raised to be risk averse and dependent on men (see above). When I lived in Italy I regularly took night buses alone and never had any problems.”

May I ask where and at what time? A 10-minute bus journey in Bologna is not the same as a 40-minut journey on the “90” line in Milan.

Being risk-averse is not necessarily a bad thing; while I agree that, all too often, Italian girls are brought up to be not independent, it has nothing to do with the risks of taking a night bus in certain cities: even the most hardened feminists would recognise that taking certain night buses at night is an unnecessary risk. And I mentioned being escorted by a male because, however unfortunate or unfair, it’s still a fact that a woman alone is an easier target than a woman with a man.

Now, to my point about the difficulty of obtaining actual data to make an informed judgement, while heroin-related deaths are pretty straightforward to count, rapes unfortunately aren’t: not every victim reports them, and some reports (hopefully a tiny minority) may be false. The numbers I have found show 422 rapes reported in 2015 in the province of Milan (province, not just the city; the province has ca. 3.2million people) vs 6,300 – 7,600 cases reported in London in 2016 and 2017. Even adjusting by population, the difference is still striking. Different ways of recording the data? Too many unreported cases in Italy? I really do not know. Oh, the same data for Italy shows that, adjusted by population, the number of rapes in Milan is twice as much that of Palermo in Sicily and more than twice as much that of Naples. Yet very few people are ever going to admit that Milan is more dangerous. Perception and reality are not always aligned

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-london-reports-met-police-rise-crime-sexual-assault-a8225821.html

nova.ilsole24ore.com/infodata/le-denunce-di-violenza-sessuale-ecco-la-mappa-provinciale-italiana/

Actually, quite a few countries have an official policy of freezing assets to prevent anyone paying up for kidnappings. However, this can lead to people not reporting crimes and driving it underground. I know of a family who paid up without involving the police a couple of years ago. They were not wealthy but not rich. And it was very apparent that people do still do so, as they aren’t that confident in the police’s ability, as it isn’t always life altering amounts, such as millions but more in the region of thousands in double digits. There are cultural and other differences between countries. Your list was just utterly daft, as you quoted a number of examples that just reek of hypocrisy. Crime and apparent better public safety standards are among the most preposterous. When you sensationalise the occurrences of certain incidents, such as acid attacks, you are skewering the real crime rates. So, do not act all surprised and aggrieved when folk point out the huge criminal legacy of the country you cite as having far fewer or none of those problems.

May I ask where and at what time? A 10-minute bus journey in Bologna is not the same as a 40-minut journey on the “90” line in Milan.

Since you ask, I lived in Milan. I'd avoid the train station at night, just as there are dodgy parts of any city I'd avoid, but in my years of living there, I never had any problems. Not saying you don't have to exercise caution as you would in any major city, just that I did not find travelling on night buses in Italian cities to require male protection.

And I mentioned being escorted by a male because, however unfortunate or unfair, it’s still a fact that a woman alone is an easier target than a woman with a man.

We're going off topic a tad, but I do belive that men are at more risk from random violence than women in public places.

*were wealthy not rich

Has anyone seen Ross Kemp's programme on Naples? Quite shocking

Women tend to get acid thrown in their faces in Italy by ex boyfriends, don't they OP? Rather than by randoms wanting their vespa.

Women tend to get acid thrown in their faces in Italy by ex boyfriends, don't they OP?

Eh..... no. No they don't. Are you sure that when you wrote 'Italy', you didn't really mean 'India'?

Women tend to get acid thrown in their faces in Italy by ex boyfriends, don't they OP?

In some ways Naples seems more like a 3rd world city than a European city. Hot, crowded, chaotic..... fascinating and repellant in equal measure.

ItalianPoster

@Aspenfrost, it does? Really? I had no idea! Wow, thank you for enlightening me! I shall be forever grateful for bringing to my attention a piece of information I would have never ever had access to! Now, what is one to do with this invaluable piece of information, other than picking up an anatomy book to get inspiration on where to shove it?

Oh dear. What a leaden attempt at humour.

Monologues are more your strength, clearly.

"Women tend to get acid thrown in their faces in Italy by ex boyfriends, don't they OP? Rather than by randoms wanting their vespa."
Sadly yes, there have been such cases. Look up "Gessica Notaro" or "Lucia Annibali".

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/29/acid-attacks-italy-gessica-notaro

I guess you must have missed the part where I criticised the Italian machista culture, the religious pressure on getting back together with cheaters, etc.

There were also other high-profile cases; in 2014 a 16-year old girl was stabbed then burned while still alive by his 17-year old ex-boyfriend. In 2016 a girl was strangled then burned by his boyfriend in the outskirts of Rome.

They are terrible tragedies. They make me ashamed of being Italian. But I neither deny nor minimise them, obviously.