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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

485 replies

ItalianPoster · 06/09/2018 21:56

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

  1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
    
  2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

  3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
    
  4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
    
  5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
    
  6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
    
  7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
    
  8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
    
  9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
    

On the plus side:

  1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

  2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

  3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

  4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

  5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

  6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

OP posts:
RiverTam · 07/09/2018 10:02

Love all the bristling Brits outraged by Johnny Foreigner daring to criticise their country.

Melassa · 07/09/2018 10:08

That said, we did have a babysitter who thought Nutella on white bread and mint flavoured squash was essential childhood nutrition...

MyGardenNeedsHelp · 07/09/2018 10:09

and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!

Very late to this thread and haven't read it all, but this ^ OMG, you are totally joking... right?

SoyDora · 07/09/2018 10:09

Mint flavoured squash?! 🤢

LoniceraJaponica · 07/09/2018 10:11

“PigletJohn

Thanks for one of the very best posts I have ever read on Mumsnet.”

I found that very interesting as well.

I don’t understand the carpet comment at all. We don’t wear shoes in the house. We don’t puke, wee or pooh on our carpets, and I clean them regularly. I live in the north of England, and hard floors make the rooms very cold in winter. We have hard floors where they are practical though – bathrooms, dining room and kitchen.

I don’t get the resistance to ID cards either StableGenius. So many places and organisations will only accept passports or driving licences as ID. What if you don’t have either? DD has just turned 18 and only got a provisional driving licence so that she can buy a drink in a bar. She doesn’t fancy carrying her passport around when out in town, and none of the bars will accept any other form of ID.

As for the rodent comment. Words fail me. No-one accepts having rats in the house as a way of life unless they are pet rats.

I agree that Italy has great wine, food and weather, but Italians are known to be very parochial about their cuisine and seem to be resistant to eating dishes from other regions, let alone foods from other countries.

VeryBerrySeptember · 07/09/2018 10:12

I haven't come across many people who do welcome criticism of their country (although they may indulge themselves!)

lowtide · 07/09/2018 10:16

Italian food is my favourite hands down. The markets are amazing the home cooking is fantastic
I think eating out is very hit and miss like any country.
And they are so focussed on regional food it can get a bit boring.

I wish we were more proud of our local produce and food. It’s changing albeit slowly.

Melassa · 07/09/2018 10:16

Oh, and if you want dog poo, I give you France.

Not to say it isn’t disgusting around here, but it’s really is so much worse in Paris and elsewhere, even my Italian DP was shocked. Down my way it’s usually old ladies with fur coats and yappy dogs who’ve “Just popped out to see Maria”, as if that’s got anything to do with it. Luckily they are quite easily shocked and embarrassed, especially when you point out how much if a shame it would be if the poo ended up on their fur coat.

MissEliza · 07/09/2018 10:17

I really can't grasp what someone would hope to achieve by pointing the negatives in someone else's country. I'm saying that as someone who has been an expat in two different countries. I was careful to keep my mouth buttoned up out of respect.
I have to saying I am PML at an Italian criticising OUR construction standards. Hmm

longwayoff · 07/09/2018 10:17

Italian construction standards are indeed world renowned but not for the reasons you would hope for, quite the reverse.

UrsulaPandress · 07/09/2018 10:17

I am currently in Sicily and every evening a woman in an apartment opposite my balcony beats seven shades of shit out of a small child. It is heartbreaking to listen to. Do any of you Italian folk know if I could report it to anyone?

SoyDora · 07/09/2018 10:18

I found Milan a bit disappointing for food (lived there for a few years). Some of the markets were good but the restaurants were, in the main, mediocre. We’d just come from living in Valencia and then Madrid and felt it was a bit of a come down (in more ways than one actually). All down to personal taste though I guess!

Talith · 07/09/2018 10:19

Exactly who tolerates rodents??? I don't know anyone who's laid back about having mice, even one the cat's dragged in!

And carpets ARE bloody necessary when you live in a cooler country and/or in a dark victorian terrace which doesn't get much sun - unless you like paying through the nose to heat the house only for it to slip through the floorboards!

loubluee · 07/09/2018 10:19

The hot and cold still come out of separate lines in a mixer tap.HTH

TheTurnOfTheScrew · 07/09/2018 10:25

I love Italy, and holiday there regularly. Adore that it's so easy and inexpensive to get high quality, fresh local produce. And the Italians we've met have been warm and charming.

However I will never get used to how they drive. I won't drive there, and am lucky that DH will. However, even though he's trained to police response driver level he gets pretty anxious about it due to the recklessness, in particular extreme tailgating and piling through red lights long after the change, generally while talking/texting on a handheld mobile phone. I'd be really interested to see a comparison of road safety stats.

FanWithoutAGuard · 07/09/2018 10:26

But the passport is no good because it doesn’t have your residency on it

Exactly - because it's just an identity document, not anything else.

Also the ID card is quick and cheap to change, if you have a change of address for instance

This has not been my experience in the countries I've lived in - but then, as I said, I probably move more often than most, and being a foreigner, my paperwork requirements are more stringent.

In the UK I find a driving license does provide many of the same benefits - but I do like that I'm not required to carry it, I have a viceral dislike of the idea of being required to carry ID day to day (even though, as a foreigner, I'm required to when I'm not in the UK usually)

SoyDora · 07/09/2018 10:26

Yes, driving in Italy is an experience!

Melassa · 07/09/2018 10:27

Soydora they put it in milk as well (latte e menta). It’s not too bad in water, or ice lollies. There’s also an aniseed cordial which is bright blue, which my DD inexplicably loves (boak)

User878929333 · 07/09/2018 10:27

I am PMSL at building standards being better ‘in most of continental Europe’! Every year we return from staying with family in France gobsmacked at the lack of building regulations. Residential houses seem to routinely have no sound/heat insulation between rooms and floors; full length staircases with open sides so kids can just fall off the edge; appallingly finishes so plenty of wonky lines and ill fitting doors! Lots of people seem to build their own houses and it seems like an architectural free for all. Apart from the low standards, the miserable small windows, dark rooms and poorly planned spaces in many houses we visit is enough to make you weep...

VeryBerrySeptember · 07/09/2018 10:30

Op must know some quite eccentric types if they are not bothered by rodents. It's not a national trait I recognise.

FanWithoutAGuard · 07/09/2018 10:31

Fanguard, not my experience, I have always eaten well for less money when eating out in Italy

Yes, admittedly I am in Rome, so it's hard to find a real place vs. the tourist traps.

I've had the children's menu thing all over - not just in the UK. I think there needs to be some middle ground between places that offer chicken-nuggets/beige and here where as much as they love kids, there's very little specific accommodation for them.

teaandtoast · 07/09/2018 10:35

I saw a massive rat on the streets of Rome. I've never seen one on my many trips to London.

What made you think this was a good idea for a thread, @Italian? 😂😂😂

Melassa · 07/09/2018 10:35

Fan, you can use the driving licence as ID here as well.

The thing is for most transactions in Italy you do need to supply proof of residence, having it all in one place just makes it that bit easier. That said it was irritating when I had my bag stolen yonks who and there was my ID card in there along with my keys, we needed to change our locks because they then had our address.

The process I found very easy, the first tine I needed an ID card I just rocked up to my Comune with my British passport and 20 mins later and €10 poorer I walked out with an ID card, even with a fancy plastic holder (sadly no longer given out).

Our comune has now moved to electronic cards and i’m not looking forward to having to renew, you now need to book an appointment online and the wait is long. My friends and neighbours who are currently renewing theirs have lost the will to live.

RedDwarves · 07/09/2018 10:38

Meh. Australia's where it's at. I'd even argue New Zealand's where it's at if we're comparing England with Italy.

But Italian food is the best. Hands down.

Racecardriver · 07/09/2018 10:40

Just so you know migrants get ID cards in the form of biometric residence permits these days. If you eventually naturalised you can get a passport/certificate. Your nationality will also be noted on documents like your drivers licence or your child's birth certificate. Not entirely sure how Id cards will help.

Seoerate hit and cold faucets were necessary in older houses where hot water tanks were housed in the loft and the water was not necessarily of drinking quality hence the need to keep the two water supplies Seoerate to avoid cross contamination.

Re carpets. I really loathe tiled floors. Can't stand them in any room that us not the kitchen or bathroom. Even then I prefer vinyl.

I have to agree with you about state funded faith schools. I was a bit Hmm when I first heard about them until I realised that they are just used by middle class families ti socially cleanse schools so that they don't have to pay privately fir a Naice school.

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