AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

OP: I bet you didn't take the night bus in Milan and anyway there are more reported rapes in London than in Milan so there.

Poster: Yes, I took the night bus in Milan as that was where I lived.

OP: But, but, but, look over here, let me change the subject.

OP you are defensive and full of whataboutery. You say you don't minimise the problems in Italy but you didn't put any of them in your "Things I hate" opening post did you, and you didn't and don't like anyone bringing them up, do you?

I didn't put Italian problems in the things I hate because, well, in case you missed it, the post was meant to me about the things I hate and love in England vs Italy. But I did mention them when I explicitly talked about all the things I like about England and which are much better than in Italy. You might have missed it, but I wasn't shy in slagging off my native country.

I didn't initially talk about security and crime because I don't like to talk about anecdotal evidence. Oh, but I hear you say, why did you mention crooked walls and doors? First of all, those are light-hearted topics – rapes and acid attacks are not; secondly, the anecdotal evidence there is, I’d guess, a bit more representative than whatever I can infer on crime and security.

You might remember that I said I was positively impressed by how half-naked, half-drunk English girls can take a night bus by themselves here, something which is much rarer and which most Italians would strongly recommend against in Italy. In my book, this is not changing the subject, it’s complimenting my host country because, in this specific respect, it is safer than my native one. Was I not clear enough?

Heroin (I topic I didn’t bring up, by the way): sorry, that’s just factual. The UK (I don’t have the breakdown for England only) has a comparable population, but more than twice as many heroin-related deaths. When something is this clear and objective there’s little point trying to hide it or downplay it. Just like I didn’t hide that Naples has a shamefully high murder rate (it’s a fact, not much to interpret). I also pointed out that people who have reservations about visiting Naples tend not to have the same reservations about visiting some US cities where the murder rate is much higher.

Also, I hate people bringing up the negative aspects of Italy so much that, when someone mentioned acid attacks against women in Italy and someone else expressed disbelief, I mentioned a number of tragic high-profile cases and even linked to an article, in English, for everyone to read about it, on the situation. Is this being “defensive and full of whataboutery”?

Iced- I don't know if you are in Italy or not, but I have lived here for 24 years (I have had my monthly namechange since the beginning of the thread) and as the OP confirms, it is sadly becoming rather the weapon of choice for many spurned partners.

OP- I do get that you are not wholly critical of the UK or wholly in favour of Italy, and I do wonder if I look at the UK with rose-tinteds because I've been away so long, bo'. I do know I feel safer in London than I do here (small boring town with about 50,000 inhabitants) I also know I won't be going back to live in the UK any time soon. Because my daughter is growing up here and is happy. I have a decent job, which I love, and because I'm a Brit, I'm obviously the acceptable face of immigration. I enjoy waging my one-woman revolution- when one of my students tells me her mother complains that "BookMe has turned you into a feminist" I go home thinking my work here is done.

Then I have to listen to Salvini and Santanche and realise it's only just starting.

I’m a Finn and have lived here (england) 20 years now. I was 25 when I moved to London. I don’t tend to mix with other Finns much as nearly all complain about the same stuff as the OP. And it does my head in. I understand if a newcomer struggles with the culture shock but those who have been here years/decades still moan about carpets and separate taps They also speak really rudely about the natives which really pisses me off.

For what it’s worth I really like carpets and don’t mind the separate taps but I do miss the Finnish version of bidet (small hand held shower next to the toilet seat) when I’m having a heavy period ☺️

Some things can grate and annoy and I wish I could change few things but I love it here and love that fact it’s very different from Finland!

No, OP, you brought up rape statistics to back-up your risk averse narrative but strangely those statistics favoured Milan rather than London so unsure of what the point of them was.

Yes you admitted the murder rate in Naples was high but you only did so begrudgingly and then had to offset that against an American city which is an odd comparison when discussing England v Italy.

There's nothing anecdotal about the prevalence and malevolent influence of the Mafia and the Catholic Church in Italy.

I've laboured the point and you won't accept it that your list of items of hatred about England and the English essentially boiled down to:

You're dirty (No bidets)
You're uncivilised (No ID Cards)
You're backward and still living in the Middle Ages (Leasehold)
You're dirty and your houses are dirty (Carpets)
You're odd (Separate taps)
You're dirty and shameful (Rats)
You discriminate (Taxpayer funded Faith Schools)
You're craven to authority (School Uniforms)
You're incapable (Construction)
You're xenophobic/racist (Immigration bureaucracy/Windrush)

I don't find anything lighthearted in any of the above bar perhaps taps probably because of the way you phrased your objections it came across as very sneering and superior. I can guarantee that if I posted anything as disparaging about Italy and Italians on here I would have had my arse handed to me, not only by you but also by UK posters.

I disagree with your list.

RedDogs, yes, I know you disagree. I don't think there is much either of us can add to what we have already said.

@Helipad, what are Finnish schools like? I understand they have an excellent reputation and the Finnish model is very different from the Anglosaxon one (mostly State, non-faith schools, non-selective, less obsession on Ofsted ratings, test results, etc), but I must admit I don't know much about them.

Your list came across as completely light hearted to me, not sure why the aggression from some posters. I agree about carpets and have wooden floors everywhere. I also wish bidets were back in fashion here, I remember them being quite common about thirty years ago where I lived.

The list is childish.
The list is meant to offend.
The list is not lighthearted.
The end.

I disagree with it too and I do not need a lecture in every blooming post.

Bidets - 🤮

Very true, Aspenfrost. The OP was just being wanky about the whole thing.