AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy

Have you never heard of the leaning tower of Pisa, petal?

I don’t know that the Genoa bridge tragedy is representative of poor construction standards. It is certainly representative of the botched privatisation of the motorways, which I alluded to, and of the lack of proper monitoring and controls. Privatising a natural monopoly is rarely efficient, but is recipe for disaster without a strong independent regulator to oversee it.

What I meant with poor construction standards in England isn’t that English houses, cladding aside, are unsafe, but that all the things I mentioned (crooked walls, front doors that don’t insulate, etc) are unheard of in many continental European countries, and it’s not just me saying it, but loads of Germans Italians and French. I know architects that worked on both sides of the channel and who are constantly telling me that the quality of many jobs here would be unacceptable in many European countries.

As for bidets, I lived in Italy about 25 years, and I don’t ever remember seeing particles of #2! Only a couple of times with small children who were just learning to use it. Oh, don’t use flushable wipes – they are not really flushable and clog the sewers. Yes, wipes are great, but how many people don’t use them? That’s groooooss….

MillyMolly, I disagree about Windrush: yes, it applied to a small portion of the population, but the consequences were devastating and life-destroying, and they would have all been avoided with the ID cards which most of the world has. There have also been other cases of people (children of Europeans) who were born here, are supposedly British, but practically no, because they can’t get hold of the documents that proved their parents’ work status when they were born many years ago.

Oh, and by the way, if we compare the North Pennines vs Sicily, sure, Sicily is warmer. But there are loads of places in Italy where the winter is harsher than in London, yet carpets are rare because they are rightly considered filthy and hard to clean.

Ah so you know some architects. Well that makes you an expert. Try actually finding out about building standards and regulations before you make such s sweeping statement based on anecdote. I get so heartily sick of the British construction industry being knocked and derided based on diddly squat evidence.

And while I’m at it, your football team isn’t up to much at the moment either op

Nonsense re carpets being dirty. Forget pee and poo. Most of us have had a child vomit on carpet. It is perfectly possible to clean it afterwards. There is a knack to cleaning carpets. I guess you have never learnt it.

My gripe about Italy: the appalling driving. During a 2 week driving holiday 2 years ago, I reckon I saw pretty much every single fault imaginable committed (short of causing actual death.) I always wonder what Italians driving in the UK make of our largely law abiding driving.

Leasehold is practical when it comes to flats. Like a lot of Londoners, I live in a house sub-divided into flats. If I own the land as well, by definition my neighbours don’t.

Hmm great standards 18% no planning permission.

Same article government saw building was dangerous, didn't fix it, many died.

MrsHarrison your post amused me.

I do not work in construction. My comments are based on my experiences in Italy and here, and those of basically every single Italian and German I know here – they’re all saying the very same thing. I remember one estate agent moaning that Italians and Germans were the worst because they were too demanding.
I do not remember ever seeing a single crooked wall while living in Italy, nor a single front door which wasn’t straight and didn’t seal the entrance properly from noise light and draught. I remember many such cases here. Are you saying my experience is not representative? If you tell me where in England houses with straight walls are common I’ll move there straight away! :)

6 of my acquaintances live in English newbuilds completed in the last 6 years, and they all have crooked walls and ceilings. Two had bespoke wardrobes fitted – the height had to be measured in multiple points because the ceiling was crooked!

Perhaps more than single, anecdotal experiences, the opinions of architects who have worked both here and on the continent is more representative. I know 2 Italian and 1 German architect, and they all say that construction standards are incredibly poor here, more than in Italy or Germany.

.

Wow, really callous to bring up the bridge collapse. One incident doesn't negate the OPs point. You've clearly not been to Italy if you don't get what she means!

Let me say that again, according to Italy's government 18% of your building built don't have permission to be built so therefore can't follow any standards.

The figure for extensions is thought to be higher.

It's thought your countries quite frankly shit building standards have meant many more people have died in earthquakes then should have.

And the bridge is a building standards issue.

I knew carpets would be mentioned! My DM complains about them all the time. Their downstairs is all tiled.
She also complains about the lack of blood tests...in Italy you pretty much get a blood test every time you go to the gp. 'In England you just get paracetamol' - quoting another Italian friend.

I've grown up here though so I tend to think the English way of doing things is the normal one.

I do think Italian supermarkets are better though and I like big overbearing families! When I was in my teens/20s I prefered Italian socialising to English socialising - Italian socialising involved more sitting down chatting and eating and less clubs followed by the night bus!

Blimey, how many posts in before OP mentioned the dreaded draughts?
Deadly, they are.

Seen more rats and filthy shoddily built buildings in Italy than I've ever seen here. Also tiled floors are cold in our old houses, and no I've never had a kid shit on the floor staining the carpet,

Cough, leasehold is not practical because leaseholders have no say in the management of the building. The freeholder can appoint the managing agents, insurers etc etc of his choosing (often companies belonging to the freeholder itself), overcharge and only in the most egregiously outrageous cases, and only after lengthy legal battles, can leaseholders sue for overcharging (like for that St George development in Vauxhall, London). In the rest of the civilised world, if you buy a flat, you have a say in choosing the managing agent!

In what way would leasehold be superior to the system used in the rest of the civilised world (which is similar to the rare commonhold or to having a share of freehold)?

Oh, and the lease-whatever-tribunal has ruled that it's the leaseholders that must pay to remove the cladding. So, leaseholders never had a say in the cladding, the freeholder is supposedly the owner of the land, yet all costs must be borne by the leaseholder. Fair and efficient...

Not to mention there can be outrageous clauses in the lease. Barclays refused to lend against flats in Stratford because there was a clause whereby the leaseholder could lose the lease if the developer went bankrupt.

Construction standards for houses in Italy and Spain are higher than in the UK, OP? Are you having a laugh? I've seen far more lopsided, poorly constructed houses in both those countries than I care to remember and as for their 'interesting' electrical wiring draped here, there and everywhere all over towns and cities, not only hideously ugly to look at but downright dangerous, explains the surges, drop-outs and power cuts though.

The Genoa Bridge collapse is absolutely representative of poor construction standards, with a whiff of corruption thrown in for good measure.

Carpets - the climate in England is cold, carpets keep the place warmer and, no, they are not dirty and revolting. Funnily enough, in Spain and Italy the cold tile floors (and lack of insulation) make the houses very cold in the, albeit short, winters and people put rugs down to offset this.

I've never seen a bidet in an office or public toilet in Italy or Spain, are you saying that no-one ever poos outside of their home in these countries, or is it acceptable to have a 'dirty' bottom in public but not at home?

Criticising faith schools when the Catholic faith has such a stranglehold in Italy, very funny OP.

Also would never bring my kid up the Italian way, people don't learn to wipe their own arses until they're 25, bitter experience with ex taught me that. Maybe he and his family were the exception rather than the rule.

OP I notice you just keep spouting the “I know a German architect and she says British buildings are shit” anecdote. Yet not answering the actual factual points being made eg sitting on a standards committee and listening to the Italian delegate saying improvements to standards are “too expensive”. Or the PP’s point that nearly a 5th of Italian buildings follow no standards at all...

I lived in Sicily for many years and your #9 has made me chuckle! Have you been to Favara? or the El Capo neighbourhood in Palermo? Via Papireto alone is shocking.

No mafia? That’s got to be a plus.
As much as Theresa may is a bit of a nob. There are no recordings of mafia saying they own her

Do the household sewerage systems in Venice still not flow directly into the canals these days then? I think washing bums in quasi sinks may be a lesser point of glory perhaps...

I don't actually use flushable wipes, I don't like the texture or smell. Prefer feminine wipes that go in the bin.

I'm guessing the people who don't use wipes are the same sort who wouldn't bother with a bidet.

Although people who don't wash their hands are far worse and should go to the special hell along with paedophiles and people who talk during movies at the cinema.

When I see someone completely unashamedly walking out of a public bathroom past multiple people without washing their hands...you just know that sort of person NEVER EVER washes their hands. 😞

Camomila, I often think Italy and England are two extremes when it comes to the approach to health: the Italians too obsessed, the English maybe too relaxed. Many people tell me the health service in Northern Italy is miles ahead the NHS, while the NHS is miles ahead that of Southern Italy. However, I have no hard data to back this up and single cases don't mean much.

Jeanclaude, I made a very similar point about Italian kids mostly brought up to be non independent. Maybe you are so upset reading some stuff you disagree with that you don't realise I had made basically the very same point! I always say that English ladies considering dating an Italian man should meet his mum, his family, and closely watch the influence the mum has on him, before deciding to get serious.

Italy has a lot of positives
But it’s pretty fucked.
Have you ever watched Gomorrah

OP admit your building standards post has been proven wrong or do I need to post the facts again?

Oh and FYI the writer of Gomorrah has to live under police protection for exposing some of the corruption.
Yet iltaly STILL voted in a party backed by a man who is in the back pocket of the most evil crime gangs