AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

Let's not turn this into us vs them - let's just remember nowhere is perfect or ideal.

Hmm, but you did start it by posting specially about Britain's faults, and now you seem completely obsessed with doors that let in draughts and completely unable to take on board anything anyone else is saying to refute your points. Dull.

Igneococcus yep as a foreigner you aren’t allowed to say ANYtHING that couldn’t be taken as a criticism of the country where you are living.

Which means you are basically told to shut up or fuck up.

Such a nice attitude isn’t it? Not xenophobic at all. Expecting immigrants to be ever so grateful that the host country has designed to accept you (even. If said country actually really badly needed you). To always be positive and accept whatever crap (even when it’s against human rights)

And all the while you are allowed to criticise any other country that isn’t yours and claimed to know better about how things are done even if you have never lived there.

That’s sort of attitude is what I call arrogance and this thread is full of it.
And I’m afraid that no, it’s not true for any country. Esp not for people like the OP that are fully integrated in the country, has lived there for years etc... Actually I know of a couple of countries where having lived 10 years in said country means that you are now considered as being from that country....

(I’m also wondering where is the self depreciating attitude that is supposed to be so british too. It seems to have disappeared from that thread....)

The bidet point is hilarious, DP’s Italian and German friends always make the same point about toilet roll. They don’t understand why or how we can consider our arse clean after using dry paper. I sort of agree with them tbh.

Nobody willingly accepts rodents in their home though . Who on Earth do you know that thinks rats and mice are harmless?

ID cards are incredibly 1984.

I don’t understand the problem with separate taps.

It's dirty

Graffiti everywhere

Traffic is insane

Petty crime outside the station and on public transport.

Beggers

Is it London that you are describing there?
Plenty of knife crimes, dirty, traffic is awful even with the congestion charges and let’s not talk about the underground at peak times....

I knew separate taps would be there!

Italian bathrooms are lovely all round ime.

I think it's quite normal to reach a point in an area / country where the little things get on your nerves. You have to go away for a bit and come back to see the positives afresh.

Of all the self proclaimed light hearted posts on mumsnet this isn't a good example.

ID cards are incredibly 1984.

But how? How is it better to have to take a mountain of paper with you when you want to open a bank account? One ID card would be so much better.

hermione

I've lived outside my country for 24 years now, in several different countries on 3 continents and no matter where I was some people get defensive if you criticise their country. Not everyone, and it does depend on how you do it but if the OP really thought that some of the wording in her post wouldn't annoy at least some of the many people on MN than yes, I think, she is either a bit naive, or not very preceptive.

I actually agree about ID cards, but think they should be free or very cheap. You need some form of ID for most things these days, and some require photographic ID. Passports and driving licences are the only officially acceptable photo IDs and they are very expensive for someone who isn't even going abroad or learning to drive.

perceptive, not preceptive

I think some people are taking some criticism of the UK a bit too personally.

But how? How is it better to have to take a mountain of paper with you when you want to open a bank account? One ID card would be so much better.

Agree

As a half Brit now living in Italy, I agree with the bidet (coukdn’t live without one now), the ID cards and the lack of green spaces. Also with the concorsi which are usually rigged anyway so someone’s relative gets in.

For the schools, I’m a fan of the Italian system in as far as content is concerned, my DD is doing both UK and Italian state exams and most subjects are studied to a much higher level at this stage (eg. Maths is about a year ahead etc.). That said, if you get a shit teacher (and they typically don’t get changed every year) then it can completely ruin your child’s educational experience. We moved our DD out of the Italian system for this reason alone, plus I have a couple of friends with high flying DC who have now encountered dud teachers and they are having problems. Italian parents typically won’t complain about a teacher “in case they take it out in their kids” and the DC get marked down.

Re healthcare, I think it depends on where you live. Where I am I’ve had quick access to what I need (you can now book most specialist appointments on the phone, yay!), there are a lot of private clinics that will do public health blood tests etc. so you get an appointment pretty much the next day. The antenatal and maternity care is streets ahead of the UK and we get a lot of routine tests that are not offered on the NHS. We also have an electronic healthcard that has all your details on and also functions as anEHIC when you go abroad.

Parks I agree with, I miss the parks in London. That said, where I lived before I had 3 parks within a 5 minute walk, now I have to cycle 15 mins to reach a (albeit huge) Park, everything close is essentially scrubby grass with a couple of swings and infested with mosquitos.

Oh yes, the mosquitos are horrendous here.

Building regs - I’ve lived in cruddy places in both countries, as well as some incredibly solidly built places. The problem in Italy is that people would carry out building or refurbishments abusively without prrmission (we had people laying cement floors over existing ones in a 18thC building which made the wooden beam ceilings on the lower floors warp) and count on paying for conformity (condono) at a later stage. This used to be a way for the government to earn money but it seems to have died down now.

I agree with all of your list. It's a good list.

I still find myself incredibly lucky to live here.

Haven’t been to Italy for years, but not being woken at 7am by a chorus of car horns (Rome), catcalled, fumbled by random men who think short sleeves are an invitation, deliberately sprayed in the rain by passing drivers, and hustled by touts, almost make up for some British failings - though not enough to make me want to return to Britain.

and don’t get me started on the dog poo in Italian public parks

BUT the food is much better here, as is the wine, the weather on the whole is fantastic (I could never stand the greatness of the UK, a lot more light here) and I think it’s a better place to bring up DC, particularly now we’re at the adolescent stage. My nieces and nephews in the Uk seemed more stressed out and overly concerned about fitting in and having the best trainers.

But how? How is it better to have to take a mountain of paper with you when you want to open a bank account? One ID card would be so much better.

BUUUTT... a passport is just a book I carry (or not if I'm in the UK) - and because of that, I rarely need it, and I don't have to do anything to keep it up to date.

The last few countries I've lived in, I've had ID/or papers - and if I've moved, I've had to update it all (and as an expat, I do move around a lot) - anything I did, I had to show that ID card, I could be expected to present it to a police officer at any point. I had to take a mound of paperwork to an office with a massive queue to update that address, or visit the police station after every trip abroad to get a new piece of card to prove the police knew where I lived etc.

This is the aspect that I think Brits bristle against - this feeling of being tracked by the government (ridiculous - given your tescos club card knows far more about you) - and especially the idea that you should carry it at all times and that anyone could require you to show it.

hadenough, you comment is childish. It reinforces the us vs them attitude, without getting into the merit of each point.

That is what you whole thread is about!

BUT the food is much better here

Really? I don't really find that to be the case - the food is fine (I've lived worse places), but eating out is a crap shoot (unless you go expensive), and the italian kids/parents I know just feed them bread, or spagetti and red sauce continually - my friend was shocked at what my kids would eat when we went out, and what was in my cupboards at home - she basically had just tins of bolognese sauce and dried pasta which they ate most of the time!

Okay, not really qualified to post as I am Scottish, but can I just say I fucking love bidets and wish they were standard in British houses?

I can answer some of these questions.

Many people do have bidets nowadays, nothing to stop someone putting one in their bathroom but they are not standard. You do need to have a big enough bath or shower room and a lot of houses, especially in big cities, aren't all that big. Good hotels generally have bidets. It wasn't that many years ago that no-one even had a shower! The English have always been a bit backward about bathrooms.

The Civil Service still have very difficult and long examinations for candidates applying for jobs in the higher echelons of the service but not for more 'ordinary' jobs.

People are conflicted about school uniforms, these have mentioned on Mumsnet before. Plenty of arguments for and against. Personally I don't have an opinion, just go with the flow.

As a long time commuter, I agree with you about the railways being privatised.

But the passport is no good because it doesn’t have your residency on it. Also the ID card is quick and cheap to change, if you have a change of address for instance. I also used to bristle against the apparent curtailment of civil liberties and big brother etc. but I have been converted. Seeing as you need proof if

ID cards are incredibly 1984.

But how? How is it better to have to take a mountain of paper with you when you want to open a bank account? One ID card would be so much better.

I think in principle most people are pretty relaxed about ID cards.

However, I seem to recall that ID cards were rejected by most sections of the electorate for a variety of reasons but mostly due to the fact that very few people trusted what was becoming an increasingly authoritarian labour government who had already introduced over 3,000 new criminal offences to the statute book. Labour and their crazed obsession with intrusive information gathering and the completely accessible (to the criminal fraternity) nature of the storage system made the scheme unacceptable to most people.

Fanguard, not my experience, I have always eaten well for less money when eating out in Italy, the only thing I miss is the range of restaurants from other cuisines, the local Indian is far too bland for my taste, for eg.

Also not my experience with fussy children, most I know will eat at least some veg, whereas in the UK I had parents being rude about the fact my DD was eating a tomato salad and much bewilderment when we didn’t choose from the chikdren’s menu in restaurants (which was mostly beige site) Most of my local friends tend to be foodies, or simply just aware of ingredients and fussy about origins and don’t do processed food for their kids. I guess it’s just where you live.