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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

485 replies

ItalianPoster · 06/09/2018 21:56

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

  1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
    
  2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

  3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
    
  4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
    
  5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
    
  6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
    
  7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
    
  8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
    
  9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
    

On the plus side:

  1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

  2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

  3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

  4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

  5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

  6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

OP posts:
thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 07/09/2018 01:18

I love carpets. Warm and cosy and lovely. Not keen on hard tile floors.

And the dogs! Went in a cycling trip in Italy and it seemed like every village we cycled through had a barking guard dog outside each house. Even got chased a few times.

My friend is an Italian academic and she says nepotism is rife in Italy. Hence why she had to come to the uk for work.

That said I really like Italy. It's very beautiful.

thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 07/09/2018 01:33

Also my Italian friend is trying to get pregnant via sperm donation. She said she can't do it in Italy because you have to be married and it's not allowed for single people Hmm

luckycat007 · 07/09/2018 01:45

@ItalianPoster I'm afraid there is a bit of culture of babying university students here also as institutions will bend to any demand in order to have a chance at getting better NSS scores.

Before I get jumped on there are students who know what initiative is and not all rely on a tutor to tell them which bus to get on to get to the university for example

SoyDora · 07/09/2018 02:11

I have lived in 14 counties in the UK and 4 different European countries. I have had rodents in 2 of those places. Paris.... and Milan. Our landlord in Milan said there was nothing he could do about it, it was just the way the building was built (lovely old block of flats with loads of holes for pipes etc between apartments).

SoyDora · 07/09/2018 02:15

Oh and we were offered a place at a faith school this term for DD1. We’re completely non religious, as are about 50% of its intake! It’s an oversubscribed school but I don’t think there are enough religious people around my area to fill it! We turned the place down, but it was offered.

SoyDora · 07/09/2018 02:17

(Oversubscribed as it’s a good school, not because it’s a faith school)

Bunbunbunny · 07/09/2018 02:52

What is the point of your post?

Everything you have tried to justify is comments from someone you know, not your actual knowledge. I’m disgusted that you used Grenfell to justify your comments regarding construction.

Your comments sounds like a soundbite from the Daily Mail.

TomPinch · 07/09/2018 05:02

PigletJohn

Thanks for one of the very best posts I have ever read on Mumsnet.

Ironfloor269 · 07/09/2018 06:32

Haven't read the whole thread yet but re no. 9, OP, do you not see the irony of the Leaning Tower of Bloody Pisa?! 😂

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 07/09/2018 06:56

Ciao !

I have Just come back from italy - partner is there and I spend a lot of time there (with family as opposed to tourist)

I tend to agree but a few I don’t

Construction standards - no sorry
We have a far better evolved culture here and Grenfell was more of a cultural /disdain for the poor issue . That said looking at Genoa bridge and Grenfell some very poor issues

We need carpets for the winter !

I agree re MIL issues

And my god I miss the tomatoes , peaches and supermarkets

I always come back weirdly grateful for the beauricraxy here ! And for the job security that said I work for a multinational . But things like compassionate leave and ability to work

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 07/09/2018 06:57

I also agree about schools 1000000%

Everyone goes to the same school there
It’s a post code lottery here with church goers and rich people having the edge

WizardOfToss · 07/09/2018 07:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ovaltine1 · 07/09/2018 07:31

Wow. You post somethig so stupid, be fucking aggressive and then say "light hearted"??! Come on, OP. Maybe, stay in Italy? After all, you seem to have no genuine 'issues' with Italy. Why come to such a piss poor, badly run, badly constructed country?

DrDreReturns · 07/09/2018 07:58

I've just been to Italy. Omg the roads, they are in a way worse condition than the UK. Massive pot holes and crumbling sections. It was noticeable as soon as we drove over the border from Switzerland.

Satsumaeater · 07/09/2018 08:04

I am also not sure about Italian construction standards. Although I agree that the quality of house building in the UK is very poor.

You're so right about ID cards. Oh not we can't possibly have ID cards but go to open a bank account or even use an estate agent you need to take so much documentation with you. Lets have ID cards and be done with it.

Also totally agree about state funded religious schools. I just can't see why it's permitted. So much angst over grammar schools, but it's ok to select kids on the basis of their parents' religion? Sighs.

We have mixer taps in the UK and have had for years and years. It just depends where you live and personal preference.

Satsumaeater · 07/09/2018 08:06

And the dogs! Went in a cycling trip in Italy and it seemed like every village we cycled through had a barking guard dog outside each house. Even got chased a few times

Won't be long before it's like that in the UK too with the explosion in dog ownership.

ChiaraRimini · 07/09/2018 08:11

I'm amazed there haven't been more comments about Italian driving???

StableGenius · 07/09/2018 08:15

Apart from never having met anyone who thinks a rodent-infested home is normal, I agree with the OP on every point. I've spent much of the summer ranting about school uniforms and I don't get the resistance to ID cards.

On construction standards, though, the Genoa bridge collapse brought up the long-standing issue of contracts going to Mafia-linked companies who then profiteer by using sub-standard materials and practices, hardly ideal. (Mind you, I'm not saying similar stuff never happens here - I bet it does.)

But yeah, on the whole, I think we have plenty to learn from our European neighbours and it's a shame we're so stubbornly resistant.

BloodyDisgrace · 07/09/2018 08:19

I agree about bidet, separate taps, leasehold and state funding fucking faith schools. Carpets are gross in homes too, but, I think, are simply the option for a colder climate (make the rooms look warmer). We'd freeze to death here with your "tiles" and "slabs" :))
(I also suspect bidets are for warmer countries where you don't have to take layers of whatever - knickers, tights etc - to get to the point which needs washing. So it's less convenient here. But, mind you, people have a shower in their house and still was only once a day ...)

I don't know much about Italy (being on holidays there isn't enough to judge the country) but I fear you have some serious fascist element, and quite a lot of racism.

The good observations while on holidays:
I like how people dress in Italy, and I guess you don't make smokers feel like the last scum on earth either. Food. Wine. Beautiful buildings.

Firesuit · 07/09/2018 08:21

Have skipped reading the thread to say that I agree with everything in the OP. Including/especially construction standards. (I suspect the bridge collapse, like Grenfell here, is a different/special issue, not about the usual standards in construction.)

My London flat built in 1990 by a large developer has interior doors with gaps round the edges you can see light through when they're shut and some electrical sockets that are not perfectly straight. (Though the doors are not the original ones, so that may not be the developer fault.) I redid a bathroom recently and after a mirror was put in that covered the upper half of one wall, remedial work was necessary because it turn out the ceiling was not perfectly straight and level, leaving an uneven gap above the mirror. I remember the home designs program where a couple in the South-East had ordered a Huff house from Germany, and the German supervisor ordered the kitchen splash-back tiling to be completely re-done because the grout lines were not absolutely perfect. The British owners could not see the problem.

recluse · 07/09/2018 08:22

I’m half English and half Italian

Me too @MillyMolly123 - waves Smile.

Must feel more English than Italian however, as I feel like this Hmm about most of the OP’s post.

It’s not even that, it’s the fact that it’s necessary to come on here and criticise. Why? It would be impossible to like everything about a place, and there are always going to be differences, which can’t even all be determined.

Having said that however, though I love Italy and in some ways feel more “myself” there (despite being thought of as a “straniera” because I speak Italian with an accent), life in England is IMO easier and less proscribed. Italians tend to use lots of words to say very little IMO, and all the amount of talking won’t help the massive and systemic Mafia etc issue. And though there is racism in England (and more so since the referendum), immigrant communities here are British and part of our society. I would say that Italy is still quite behind in that regard.

Dumbledoresgirl · 07/09/2018 08:26

The faith school issue you mention is only relevant, if it is, in cities. My children all went to a faith school though we do not have a faith. It was the village school, and broadly speaking, every child in the village went to that school. I can also tell you, speaking as a primary school teacher who has taught in faith and non faith schools alike, there is very little difference between the two, far less religion in the faith school than you might imagine, and far more in a non faith school than many passionate atheists might find acceptable.

recluse · 07/09/2018 08:26

Interesting thread anyway because I genuinely love both countries and my DNA comes from both Grin.

BitOutOfPractice · 07/09/2018 08:27

I’m not disagreeing with the op about most stuff. Though the use of very inflammatory language like “revolting” and “filthy” and “shit” belie the fact that this thread is just a lighthearted musing on differences between two cultures.

I have picked her up on one issue (construction) with specific examples of how she may be mistaken but she prefers to rely on anecdote and stereotype.

BloodyDisgrace · 07/09/2018 08:28

Do you [think?] people of faith who pay taxes should not be entitled to a state funded education for their children if they want a faith based education?

I think faith should be a private matter, and therefore there should not be any "faith based education". Study theology by all means as a subject, bud don't indoctrinate young children into a belief in schools on state money - that's the difference and the gist.