AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

Been to Naples anyone?

It's a falling apart shithole from what I can see.

Chocolatedeficitdisorder

Stovies vs Irish stew is a totally different thread.

RedPencil, in theory State-funded faith schools accept non-religious students. But surely you know that, in practice, many schools are so oversubscribed that non-religious students stand no chance whatsoever. I like that uniforms remove the pressure of wearing expensive trendy clothes. But the rigidity of some rules is idiotic. Some schools didn't let pupils adapt to the heatwave. And capricious rules send the entirely wrong message.

Gersemi, the bullying of the Windrush scandal was incredibly worse. It destroyed the lives of British citizens who were wrongly kicked out of their country. I think that's way worse than a cop giving you a hard time because you forgot your ID card at home when he pulled you over. Again, how do you prove citizenship without a passport? True question, I really don't know.

Leasehold works for you? Maybe for you personally, but have you heard about all the recent leasehold scandals, and all the properties which are unsellable because of some harsh covenants in the lease?

Anyone can send their child to a faith school. They just apply like everyone else.

They tried that with Brexit, and now the whole of Europe laughs at them.

That's interesting because we happened to be in Italy at the time of the Brexit vote and every single Italian we spoke to thought it was the right decision and said they would vote leave if they had a referendum. That doesnt mean it was the right decision, but 'the whole of Europe laughs at them' is just nonsense. You could ask the Greek people what they think of the EU for example, I dont think many of them are laughing.

"Been to Naples anyone?

It's a falling apart shithole from what I can see."

I shall be looking forward to your elaborating on this profound concept and explaining why it's relevant.

Yes, anyone can apply to a faith schools; the realistic odds of getting in, that's another story.

Ok, I lived in Italy for years. I miss having a bidet, but have to disagree about the following:

Construction standards.
Even without bringing up the Genova bridge tragedy, I've known about Italy's issues with dodgy adulterated Mafia cement and other construction materials for years! A project is specified, a lower grade material is used instead and the cost difference finds it's way into someone's hands. Not to mention the 'slaughter' on the building sites where the 'extra communitari' are expendable and health and safety standards non existent.

No ID cards.
Following on nicely from above, I have witnessed, in Lega land, said extra communtitari standing on their one remaining leg (other probably left on said dodgy building site) for an hour in the blazing sun, while the police officer takes great delight in checking his 'documenti'. Probably on account of the fact he happened to be brown in a public place.
Following a car crash (Italian driver, friend 1, 100% at fault), the police officer (whilst trying to chat up my non Italian speaking friend 2) enjoyed waving the other driver's documenti around and showing us what he thought was a piss take worthy, too long by his standards, foreign name. We were.

Finally, it might not be possible to perform a twice daily sterilisation of a carpet, but they're perfectly adequate for upstairs in a British home. I swear that the marmo was invented to keep the average obsessive bored casalingha/nonna busy with the swiffering and mopping rituals!

Read RedPencil's post, faith schools do accept students outside of the faith and always have done. You do realise that the UK taxpayer funds non Christian faith schools too, don't you?

No, you have completely misunderstood me - you wrote a 'lighthearted' post criticising things about the UK and made 9 points. To balance those points you came up with 6 minor 'negatives' about Italy and even managed to criticise the UK again in one of those points.

"That's interesting because we happened to be in Italy at the time of the Brexit vote and every single Italian we spoke to thought it was the right decision and said they would vote leave if they had a referendum. "
The average voter is an ignorant idiot. Pretty much everywhere. The Americans voted Trump. Here Brexit. In Italy Berlusconi and now these two populist clowns of the league and the 5star.
The average Italian you may "speak to" will also tell you that foreigners are 20 to 30% of the population when the real number is closer to 8-9%.

Lots of kids go to c of e schools.

Naples - I was referring to the construction standards.

So are you saying the average person of voting age (how do you define that FFS?) is an ignorant idiot? Now I understand the sweeping generalisations in your original post.

"Read RedPencil's post, faith schools do accept students outside of the faith and always have done. You do realise that the UK taxpayer funds non Christian faith schools too, don't you? "

You are either naive or in bad faith. Yes, non religious students are theoretically accepted. Leaving aside whether it is fair to have religious education at all, in practice, the most oversubscribed schools accept between zero and very few non religious pupils. My point is always the same: Christians have more choice in a fundamental public service like education.

Imagine a hospital that prioritised Christians in their waiting list. Yes, you can apply, but your chances of being seen there promptly will be slim if the waiting lists are very long.

Surely you realise that? Again, kindly explain how that is fair?

Yes my faith school was a state school! A large proportion of us were not of that faith. It just happened to be the better school of the two I lived near

#Summeriseasy
Stovies vs Irish stew is a totally different thread.

Do we really want to go there? That's big stuff.

Maybe faith schools work differently in Italy? Or the OP is thinking of private faith schools?

Bidets - just a regional thing. We haven't grown up with them, so don't miss them when they are not there. Are you subtly trying to tell us we all smell because they are not in common use?

Rodents - where on earth are you living or who are you speaking to that gives you the impression that they are "accepted passively"???

I can't be bothered to counter your other points as it's late, but had better take myself off to bed as I'm obviously dangerously ill due to my carpets. Honestly, how have we survived up till now?

OP - 'I've live in the UK and am very fond of it'... OP - Ensuing massive 'light hearted' rant of why the UK is so shit (yet I still choose to live here) 😂

I'm not convinced that Windrush would have been avoided by ID cards. It would depend what kind of ID officials had been willing to issue several decades ago. But bullying by abuse of the power to demand ID cards has been going on in Italy and other countries for generations. Given the ius soli issue, I don't think Italy can really boast about the way it treats settled immigrants.

On another topic: abortions. Much more difficult to get in Italy.

I'd hate to live in a place where the local authority were killing rodents on a regular bases. How the hell do they do it - poison? The poison would be eaten by pets and wildlife - or don't they give a shit? Trapping them?

Do they hire a Pied Piper?

Carpets are easier to keep clean and are better for allergy suffers than hard floors. In a beam of sunlight I could see every particle stirred up when people or pets walked through the room. Carpet fibers trap allergens until you vacuum them up. On hard floors the dust bunnies would herd together and hide under furniture. I finally got carpets installed in every room of the house except for bathrooms, kitchen, breakfast room, mud room and laundry room. I LOVE THE CARPETING. Feels so good to walk on.

I bought a carpet shampooer and love being able to restore the carpets to brand new condition every time I use it. (It's got express and deep clean settings. Express uses less water and dries in 1 hr.)

Do you people of faith who pay taxes should not be entitled to a state funded education for their children if they want a faith based education?

Your hospital analogy doesn't work, OP. If you can't get into the local faith school, you don't go onto a long waiting list before you can get into a school: you will be given a place at another school.

You forgot to mention electric plugs. UK is the home of the world's finest plug and socket system. However they are rather big.

The reason for the separate taps is that Britain was industrialised and had running water in towns and cities earlier than most countries.

In my lifetime the last of the old Roman waterpipes in London were put out of use, there may still be some working in places like Bath. The oldest piped water in a semi-domestic residence, still working, in England, was installed about 1530 in the king's private apartments, to reduce the risk of infection or poisoning. The supply was maintained in secret until recently.

For the next two or three hundred years most of the pipes were lead, which is a soft metal, and they were of small diameter. The water pressure was quite low, and, as still happens in some countries, the supply was intermittent.

The system was therefore designed so that most houses had a water tank high up, usually in the roof, which was filled at low speed and stored sufficient water to supply the house at times of day when the supply was poor and demand was high.

Drinking water was delivered direct from the mains to a tap in the kitchen, and was protected from contamination. From 1854 in London, the risks of contaminated water from pumps and wells led to a reduction in their popularity.

Hot water was heated in various ways, and delivered, at quite high flow rates, from the tank, so that a bath could be filled in a matter of minutes (faster than the main delivered water to the house).

This meant that the water pressure in the hot and cold pipes was different, so even when mixer taps were invented, later, they were unsuitable because the high-pressure water from one pipe could force its way into the low-pressure pipes, with various undesirable results.

At no time in the following 300 years did it seem like a good time to change the plumbing system in every house, every street and every pumping station to a high-flow, high-pressure system. Apart from the cost, applying high pressure to old pipes tends to make them burst, and to old taps and fittings tends to make them leak.

You will be delighted to learn that a hygienic design of mixer taps was introduced to British kitchens about 60 years ago, with features to prevent mixing in the pipes (modern mixer taps are actually not as good in this regard) and over the last 40 years, the old water mains were mostly been replaced with steel and plastic ones that can accommodate higher pressure and flow. As new houses are built and old ones replumbed, they are fitted out to use high-pressure taps, including Italian ones, and mixers. Many of them are still slower to fill a bath than the earlier plumbing system, though.

I will be pleased to expand on this brief summary if you wish.

Should read "Do you think.."

Obviously my comment about the Catholic Church and it's detrimental influence on life in Italy hit a raw nerve with you ItalianPoster.

Any chance you could address the other points posters have been making, or, even have another go at my comment about why you didn't balance your criticism more evenly for a 'lighthearted' thread? So far, according to you, the biggest plus we have is mothers-in-law.

@Washedwithrain -- Come ask the Spanish. Frankly, many of them will be glad to see the back of the English and their violence fuelled tourism.

Re rodents. I lived in Italy for three months and in Venice, feral, neglected cats roamed like flies on the streets. Filthy dirty and completely uncontrolled. You can't moan about a few rodents when at least we keep our feline population down.