AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

@RedDogsBeg

"Criticising faith schools when the Catholic faith has such a stranglehold in Italy, very funny OP."

yours is a very childish comment. I am not saying that one country is better in everything! Have you even read my post? Your reply is similar to those who say: how dare you criticise party X for being corrupt when party Y is corrupt, too? Well, who told you I support party Y? What gave you the idea I support the obnoxious influence that the Catholic church has had in Italy??? So I cannot criticise the State funding of Christian schools.... because the Catholic church has a lot of influence in Italy? What's the logic? Explain please?

Also, if you don't agree with this criticism, can you please elaborate why? What is fair or reasonable about all taxpayers funding schools open, de facto, for Christians only? I am all ears.

My dad was a bridge engineer. (He’s retired now - not dead!) At one point he was in charge of maintenance of all the bridges in (insert British county here).

I remember one very fun holiday on continental Europe where we drove around supposedly to go to different beaches but in reality it appeared to be to critisise the maintenance of their bridges.
“Yes Dad - I can see that crack. Yes - the tape measure is in the car. 32mm - gosh - yes that is bad. You’d have someone out on Monday would you? Yes - sub section 3.9.1.5.4.3 does say that cracks should be smaller than XYZ mm. (At the age of 11 I knew what sub section it actually was but thankfully the knowledge has escaped me.) Yes - dreadful. Some photos - ummm - I think there is only 3 left on the film and mum wanted to take the odd one of me and DB on the beach. Umm - mum looks a bit cross now. Yes - it is a big crack. No - I don’t think it moves when I jump on it. Yes - a very big crack. Can we go to the beach now?”

OP, you really need to move to Scotland. It's Paradise up here compared to England.

(Apart from the mice, carpets, toilet paper and new builds)

We have freehold properties, fewer religious schools and we're less demanding about school uniform rules. We also have Stovies.

Things I hate about Mumsnetters who name change to take a swipe at other nationalities....

1.) It's cowardly

2.) Grow a spine and see above

I’ll add one more word: Berlusconi

@lowtide: what??? what do you mean? Have I maybe ever said or implied that Italy is not corrupt? Or that it is maybe less corrupt than England? Of course not, so what on earth is the point of your comment????

The corruption to do with building perks and cement and up keep of bridges makes me pretty angry.
I’ll take our crappy red tape over that any day.

Carpets.
Steam clean twice a year and more often as needed.

No problem.

Ah still ignoring the building facts are we @Italian.

Taxpayers in the UK fund all State schools including faith schools, are you really saying that people of faith should pay for their children's education because they have faith?

You criticise tax payer funded faith schools in the UK but don't balance that against the, in your words, obnoxious influence the Catholic Church has in Italy.

You levelled some rather nasty, judgemental and belittling criticisms of the UK and then posted very mild, slight criticisms of Italy and you wonder why you got peoples backs up.

I completely agree with you on the health thing! Also, I think Italians like to chat about health as a neutral small talk topic (like English people and the weather)

I haven't noticed my Italian cousins babying their children but we are very rural (ie the DC get taken up alps at the weekend) so that probably skews things.

One big positive for Italy - ice cream. It’s the best.

Italy is a nice warm country for most of the year. The British Isles are cold for most of the year. It was 12 degrees this morning when I set off for work today, yet it was sunny and really quite a good day for the time of year. This has been the best British summer since records began as I understand it.

Tonight in Rome the temperature is 21 degrees according to google, yet in the North of England and Scotland it is currently 7 degrees. Of course we need carpets and insulated homes. The bidets are a personal choice, but not a substitute for a daily shower which is quite adequate for most people.

I do not work in construction so of course I cannot answer the "factual points" about standards and committees. I am, however, always curious to learn more, so I'm all ears if anyone cares to elaborate.

Yes, Italy is a corrupt country with plenty of building irregularities. However, shock and horror, not all Italians are corrupt; those who aren't typically choose to live / build / sell properties which have been properly built with all the permissions, which are those I have experience of. In those, crooked walls, front doors which don't seal etc were non-existent. In the hundreds of properties I must have viewed in England, they are common. What can I say, maybe my experience, and that of every single European I know, is not representative.

England is not a seismic country so you cannot compare this aspect - you do not know how well stuff would have been built her if it had had to withstand earthquakes. So don't compare apples and oranges.

AFAIK, despite the Daily Express revolting headline asking if the Greenfell tragedy was the fault of EU rules (it wasn't), something like that has never happened in Italy; oh, and, one year on, who's in jail for that? Let's not turn this into us vs them - let's just remember nowhere is perfect or ideal.

Completely agree.

I am grateful daily for the fact I'm not English.

Of course they'll disagree with you and try and make you feel inferior.

They tried that with Brexit, and now the whole of Europe laughs at them.

The vast majority of faith schools take children of different faiths too. I went to a faith school of a faith I'm not a part of and it wasn't much different from others, only that your religion was an acceptance consideration.

I'm an advocate of school uniforms. It allows everyone to be the same and differences in the clothes people can afford etc are lessened.

Op
I think you should give up! You came on late to Aibu and slightly slagged the U.K. off.

It was never going to go well

Also, carpets in homes are the cosiest thing ever! You just have to keep them clean like other material furnishings. Or do you sleep and sit on tiles/wooden benches?

1. No bidets: we tried them. Honestly. There was a phase when all new bathrooms had them. We decided that a shower did the job better.

2.No ID cards. Why do we need them? Yes, we have passports. The point is that, happily, we live in a society where we aren't expected to carry them all the time and officials who feel like bullying any particular sector of society can't do so by demanding ID all the time.

1. Leasehold: it works for us. I've known people in flats in other countries get into horrendous disputes about how they're going to deal with repairs for roofs and maintenance of common parts.
2. Carpets: they're ^so" much more comfortable, warm and welcoming than wooden or tile floors. And we can clean them fine.
3. Separate taps: I'll give you that, but they're increasingly uncommon.
4. If you're trying to say you have no rodents in Italy, you are fantasising. Six million rats in Rome alone, and have you seen the reports about the coypu problem?
5. I agree we shouldn't have faith schools, but what admission system are you proposing for state schools? And comparing our system unfavourably with that of a country where the Catholic church has such a firm hold on education is ironic.

8 Yes, we should get rid of school uniforms, they're ridiculous.

1. Constructions standards: you are joking, aren't you? You are comparing our standards unfavourably with those of Italy, a country where the construction industry is mired in corruption scandals?

No nowhere is perfect or ideal, everywhere has plus points and minus points, most people would balance them fairly if they were truly doing a 'lighthearted' post, you chose not to.

hadenough, you comment is childish. It reinforces the us vs them attitude, without getting into the merit of each point.

RedDogsBeg, I don't need to "balance" anything because I was talking about a specific point, not comparing the influence of religion in the 2 countries. By your logic, any criticism of Corbyn must be balanced with some criticism of May otherwise it's invalid????

"are you really saying that people of faith should pay for their children's education because they have faith?"
This I don't understand. What do you mean??? Christians can send their children to faith or non-faith schools. Non-Christians only to the latter. Yet they are both funded by everyone's taxes. Please explain how that is fair?? Imagine the same, but with another public service: hospitals, police service, whatever. Again, how would that be fair?

All I'm saying is that State-funded schools, which are funded by everyone's taxes, should not discriminate by religion. No public service should. It would not be accepted for any other public service. Yet no one seems to bat an eyelid for schools.

But again you say British ahs poorly built homes but then 18%of all your homes aren't even meant to be built @Italian.

You had your own grenfell instead
In 2003, after a school collapsed in Puglia, a survey was ordered of all the public buildings in areas of high seismic risk. Among those singled out was the student residence in L’Aquila. A plan was drawn up to make it safe at a cost of almost €1.5m (£1.28m).
The money was never spent. Or at least not on the securing the residence.
He was speaking next to a student residence in L’Aquila that collapsed, taking the lives of seven young people and injuring hundreds of children that went to chop it that day

Oh and this The San Salvatore hospital, evacuated after its walls gave way, forcing doctors to treat quake victims and ordinary patients in a courtyard, has exposed inadequate infrastructure in the area.

Oh and this More than 2m homes across the country are unstable, according to figures from the national statistics agency, Istat, and more than 156 school ceilings have fallen in over the last five years.

Approximately 300 bridges are at risk of collapse in Italy