AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

Television is dire. Like something from another galaxy.

Some TV is so bad that even UK Broadcasting in the 70s would deem it inappropriate

It’s like they start their version of ‘have I got news for you ‘ with a short pole dance

And then Ian Hislop pinches one of their arses before launching in

Shocking !

The mafia and gomorrah shows are good through

“It is always wise, when a guest in someone's home, not to criticise the habits and decor of the homeowner. No matter how "lighthearted" your intention you will just sound like a boorish ill-mannered fool.”
Would the same people react very differently if fellow, 100% born-and-bred Brits had dared say that they prefer X in Italy, Y in France etc?

I wonder, because I have heard similar comments, along the lines of: “go there, then, what’s keeping you here, etc” when I am in Italy and say that something is better in England than in Italy. Not everyone does this, of course, but maybe narrow-minded xenophobes behave similarly all over the world. Thank God I am a citizen of the world, I meant, of nowhere.

"Thank God I am a citizen of the world,"

are you? You sound more like a citizen of Italy who lives in the UK, tbh…:)

I don't eat pasta every day and I dare rebel against family intrusions in our lives, so the English sun must have watered down my Italian genes :)

Hi5 OP from this fellow citizen of the world. Have also experienced the type of response you're getting, not being allowed to comment on the goings on in this here land on account of being a bloody furriner. Insecurity, if you ask me, suggest you just ignore it because usually, there's nothing to be done and no reasonable argument to be had.

It was nothing to do with that. Some people took umbrage at the tone and emphasis of the OP’s original and subsequent posts. Only the possibly racist idiots told her to “go back to Italy then”. There is a difference between the two.

I think it’s cultural differences in part. IME Italians are more direct than English people, and stuff gets lost in translation.

And FWIW, I am an Anglo-Italian who was brought up in a third European country, and who would also be one of Theresa May’s citizens of nowhere.

Italians are far more respectful of others opinions, they would rather keep quiet than offend a guest. However, if you are a close relation/friend a heated discussion would incur. Politeness is extremely important to Italians "Bella figura". Italian children are very well behaved compared to the English children. You will see Italian children in supermarkets and restaurants with parents paying them lots of attention and making small talk, not just being ignored and given an iPad/phone to play with. We saw a group of roughly 15 youngsters ranging from the ages of 10 to 16 in a pizzaria, no adults, sat and ordered with no dramas. I was aghast how polite and mature they all seemed. Overheard a couple of teenage boys in coffee shop discussing the price of the local Parmesan😀 It was so cute! Family is everything in Italy and the extended family is everywhere, the elderly are not shoved in a care home, they stay with the family to be looked after.

I’d say that, if you are lucky enough to be born, by pure chance, in a great family with loving caring and respecting relatives, than the amount of support, financial and non, you can get from that kind of Italian family is amazing. I know people who gave up good careers abroad and moved back to Italy for this reason. However, these situations seem somewhat rare. Cases of overbearing, suffocating relatives and extended family seem way more common. It would be interesting to ask Italian divorce lawyers how many of their cases are caused by MILFH (no, not MILF, but Mother-In-Laws-From-Hell)!

As for Italians being more respectful of other opinions, I am not so sure about that. Populism and social media have had a nefarious effect; it is now very common for any idiot to turn into a keyboard warrior and take his/her frustration out on experts because he/she has read something on the internet. We saw part of that in Brexit, too, but Italy’s government is run by a weird coalition of the League and the 5-star-movement, next to whom Boris seems like an accomplished diplomat. For example, the anti-vaccine movement has been gaining ground over the last years. One medical doctor, Burioni, who has been very active on social media debunking all the fake news against vaccines, has received death threats and was forced to cut his holiday short because people had been following him and posting his whereabouts (we know where you’re staying, you can’t hide, etc). That is sad and scary.

Italy’s largest daily, Il Corriere della Sera, provocatively talked about the “5-million club”: in a nation of 60ish million people, approximately 5 millions regularly read newspapers, buy books, watch the equivalent of BBC’s Panorama, etc. Everyone else? Most likely keyboard warriors, or at risk of turning into one.

Italians are far more respectful of others opinions

Oh the sweet sweet irony of that on a thread by an Italian slagging off a whole nation as filthy and disgusting!

it needs to be repeated: There is no such thing as flushable wipes! They clog up the sewers. Do not flush wet wipes. Ever! No where! Not in public toilettes, not in private toilettes, not in this country nor in any other country.

OP: Thank God I am a citizen of the world, I meant, of nowhere.

Love your superiority. Keep digging.

Italy has a massive heroin problem though doesn't it?

"Italy has a massive heroin problem though doesn't it?"

What's the relevance of this in a discussion about cultural differences?
Also, what's your source? The European drugs agency actually says that the UK has one of the worst heroin problems in Europe.

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/06/almost-one-in-three-drugs-overdoses-in-europe-occur-in-the-uk

"It registered a total of 8,441 overdose deaths, mainly related to heroin and other opioids, in 2015 – a 6% increase on the 7,950 deaths across the 30 countries in 2014, with increases reported in almost all age groups.

The UK accounted for 31% of those deaths, with Germany in second place on 15%. Although the researchers noted there could be under-reporting in some countries, they said the size of Britain and Germany’s at-risk populations was a factor."

Could you now be so kind as to admit that you WERE FACTUALLY WRONG?

If you want to read the latest report, it's here:
www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-developments/2018

Also, since my slagging off Italy has been deemed insufficient by some, I shall now post a video of myself burning the Italian flag while singing God save the queen, sitting at a desk with a pint of warm ale and a plate of baked beans. Shall that be enough to placate the geniuses who said that I can't tolerate any criticism of Italy and who have evidently not read a single word I have written?

" What's the relevance of this in a discussion about cultural differences?"

I think it's very relevant. It's just something that I have noticed. Back in the 90s London was full of Italian junkies wandering about looking lost. then at stations like eg Bologna you cant use the underpass because junkies.
I wonder if the whole 'family' thing is a bit suffocating for some , that 's all.

there is no need to be silly about baked beans now is there?

Mmm: beans on toast, the taste of home!

I watched a programme about french people living in England and two young footballers were discussing the "everything on toast" phenomenon. Then to my surprise they said they liked it!

the elderly are not shoved in a care home, they stay with the family to be looked after

Really? How does that work when a person needs 24 hour care from two people then - eg need two people to get them to the loo?

guess how it works satsumaeater?

@Satsu, many people lose their mental sanity by looking after older parents. The average Italian parent can be very hard to put up with; ever seen anyone become more reasonable with age? Me neither. The elderly's pension is often managed by their sons who use it to pay for care; a 'badante;, ie full time, often -live-in carer, is relatively common for the elderly. Of course there are sons who are less than honest when managing their parents' pension.

FourFried, anecdotally, I remember way more junkies in the '90s than now. But we were talking about now, I think. European data about recorded deaths, ie not a survey based on a small unrepresentative sample, shows that the UK accounts for 30% of heiron-related deaths, followed by Germany 15%. I don't know the figure for Italy but it must be less than 15%.

Are you willing to admit that the UK has more of a heroin problem than Italy? That you were factually wrong? Or is that too much to ask?

Note this doesn't mean that Italy is a drug-free paradise, far from it. My point is there is no point engaging in a discussion with people who base their conclusion on anecdotal evidence, and aren't willing to admit when real data contradicts them.

I love carpet.

" Are you willing to admit that the UK has more of a heroin problem than Italy? That you were factually wrong? Or is that too much to ask? "

from what I have seen no. IMO the heroin problem is Italy is way under-reported precisely because of the thing that people think is so great about it - that is 'the family'.

No need to get on your high horse. Why not think about it, it wont hurt.

PS In the '90s there was a huge fear about junkies robbing people by threatening them with needles. I do not have any hard data to understand how justified this fear was, but it was a widespread fear

how horrible.
Anyway I love Italy, what I have seen of it. And to be honest the only 'foreign' people that I have really been friends with ...are Italians!!

...but honestly Italian poster, even coming from South London (rough as fuck) to a rather rich little town in Lombardy, I found the sheer number of junkies on the steps of the railway shocking...and a bit scary.