AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

"we were NOT talking about the USA we were comparing the UK and Italy."
Of course. My point was that perception and reality often diverge.
My point was not: you cannot criticise Naples because there are more murders in DC. MY point was: many people would be horrified to visit Naples but don't mind visiting a city with a murder rate 2.4 times higher. Why? Bad publicity has more to do with it than actual, real danger. But of course all many people saw was me "jumping to the defense"

On the Naples point... I’ve never been but interestingly DH (who has travelled extensively with work and on gap years) says Naples is the only place he’s ever felt really threatened. I quite want to go and see what all the hate is about!

Naples is where my mum is from She grew up there post war

Shes 82.

Mice in London were dire when my DCs lived there. Just accepted as having to be lived with in the old building DS worked in.
But I would think they are a problem in any city with old buildings as they have immunity to common poisons.

I'm going to defend carpets OP (that's a post I never saw coming!). Lots of us live in draughty old houses that have to see us through some long winters. I've done the whole stripped floor and kilim thing but my old bones crave warmth these days. It's not that hard to shove a vacuum round. I'm less enamoured of 'wood effect laminate' which is essentially a photograph of real wood. Give me carpet any day.

I agree with many of your other points though, and it's true, construction standards in the UK which can be shoddy, as evidenced by threads I have read here. Whether they are better in Italy I'm not qualified to say.

which

" I always say that English ladies considering dating an Italian man should meet his mum, his family, and closely watch the influence the mum has on him, before deciding to get serious"

I TOTALLY agree with this.

"If parents are born in uk then they will have a British birth certificate, by 16 child will have received a national insurance number.
[...]

For college enrolment his NI letter, birth certificate and bus pass was shown. "
All these documents may be used, often subject to inconsistent requirements, to prove address and/or identity. None cam by itself, be used to prove

C
I
T
I
Z
E
N
S
H
I
P

!

Okay ItalianPoster I'll break it down for you, it will be lengthy though. Your posts and how they come across:

1. No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?

What an incredibly dirty, unhygienic lot all you people in the UK are.

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

Listen to me, look at how uncivilised and backward you all are, and I don't care what you say against them I won't get it because I am right. Your failure to adopt ID Cards because you don't want to caused the Windrush Scandal you silly people.

3. Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?

You backward fools still living in medieval times.

4. Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.

Your personal preferences or justifications for carpeting are irrelevant, listen to me they are filthy and so are you for having them, do as I say I am so much better than you.

5. Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!

You funny lot really are stuck in the Dark Ages aren't you? (by the way we call them taps not faucets which is a term used in America)

6. Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!

We are all so far in advance of you in Continental Europe, you dirty lot live in rat infested hovels and don't seem to care, you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.

7. State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.

How dare your system provide faith schools for people who wish their children to attend one. This is discrimination and I will make a completely ridiculous comparison with hospitals to prove my point.

8. School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed, control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.

What a craven bunch you all are, and all those head teachers who do their job and enforce the uniform policy are just repressed control freaks.

9. Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?

You useless, backward bunch you can't even build houses properly, we are all so far ahead of you in Continental Europe.

If that isn't a masterclass in sneering superiority I don't know what is. Your criticisms are directed more at the people of the UK rather than at the systems within it.

I'll do the next bit in a moment.

@AlmaGeddon

our tap water is drinkable everywhere in the country!

sadly not completely true.

If your bathroom cold tap fed from a tank in the loft, there is a chance that it is an old one and does not have a tight-fitting plastic lid and closed connections for overflows. In which case there might be drowned spiders and other wildlife in it, possibly including pigeons, squirrels and rodents.

If it does not have a modern insulating jacket on it, it may become very warm on sunny days (the jacket is not to prevent the tank freezing) which encourages microbial growth.

I am very keen on loft tanks being clean and covered. It is not difficult or expensive.

Interestingly (?) hot water is much safer to drink, because it is pasteurised by the heat. This can be useful to know in hotels in some countries.

In some parts of the country (not London) bathroom cold taps are traditionally fed with drinking water direct from the main, not the tank, so safe to drink. But this can prevent mixer taps and showers working correctly unless extra work is done.

I was going to weigh in but I see from the OP you’re only addressing “England” and not the rest of the UK.

RedDogsBeg, you missed out the other part where I mentioned:

1. dysfunctional families in Italy; children brought up to be more independent here; families which are suffocating and wield an extreme influence in Italy but not here

2. How the job market sucks in Italy. How Italy is more closed to foreigners and non-whites. How a foreigner would never be considered for a high profile job like heading the Central Bank

3. and 4) the dysfunctional Italian civil service with stupid and inefficient selection processes and the inefficient Italian bureaucracy

4. applauding England for its green spaces, playgrounds etc, which are rare to non-existent in Italy

5. Criticising the botched privatisation of the Italian motorways

And this without mentioning all the other points I expanded on later.

For the last time , FFS, if you want to believe that moaning about carpets and bidets in England is a harsher criticism against England than criticizing corruption, inefficiencies and dysfunctional families in Italy , well, I am really at a loss for words

I have absolutely no idea how to use a bidet. There is one next to the toilet in my hotel. Do I sit on it. If so it is far too low for my arthritic knees.

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

The number on thing you have better than in Italy is mothers in law and more independent children - bet that makes you feel proud.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

I have to concede that there is more work here and you are generally fairer.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

Your processes for entrance to the Civil Service are better.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

Your immigration policies and processes are shameful, I have to get that in and stress Windrush again just so you really get the message but I will admit that the rest of your bureaucracy is pretty good.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

I don't know about the rest of the country but at least in London there are some lovely parks and green spaces.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

Must get in a dig here about privatised railways but will praise you for your free motorways.

In this section - 5 comments relating to infrastructure and bureaucracy, one 'personal' one against Italian family structure.

Now do you see what I mean?

Oh, and, @RedDogs, surely you realise that the issue is not with religious parents providing a religious education to their children – the issue is that a fundamental public service like education can discriminate (both students and teachers, because faith schools are allowed to discriminate against non-religious teachers) on the basis of religion. If you fail to see the problem it means that, as we say in Italy, you have slices of prosciutto covering your eyes.

And for uniforms , my gripe is not with sensible olicies sensibly enforced, but with cases like these:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-41173671
www.ibtimes.co.uk/schoolchildren-forced-queue-rain-teachers-check-if-trousers-are-right-shade-grey-1638256

Surely you can explain why that is reasonable – I’m all ears. You see, if I had been made to stand in the rain while some adult checks whether I am wearing the right shade of grey from the right supplier, I would have probably thought that the school was run by capricious idiots and I would have started to question ALL their rules and policies. But that’s just me – I shall be looking forward to an explanation on how you’d be happy about that and why.

So you still will not accept it, you are not just moaning about carpets and bidets stop being disingenuous you are saying the lack of one and prevalence of the other means the people of the UK are filthy fuckers.

Have you ever seen a German toilet?
www.toytowngermany.com/forum/uploads/post-16-1101231567.jpg

Most have a kind of "step" so that your "product" must be somehow pushed down, otherwise it just sits there, and also it risks, well, making you dirty. I have been able to bitch and moan about that with German acquaintances without being accused of a fifth of the things you are accusing me of. They bitched and moaned about the lack of public toilets and the generally abismal hygiene of toilets in bars and cafes in Italy, without either side taking offence. Or so I thought.

My 9 year old daughter had her bag unzipped and a camera stolen while walking down the street. So in my eyes, at least, Naples is a shit hole.

Red Dogs, the OP never said any of those things, you have just chosen to believe that she did. Unclench and don’t be so defensive. Or has it hit a nerve on a personal level? Has someone inferred that you might have a crusty bottom?

Naples is a bit of a shithole. But then so is Middlesborough. And a number of places in rural Albania. So?

You bitched about the toilets with your German friends not the people who use them - your diatribe on bidets was entirely different you were bitching about the lack of them and the fact the UK doesn't as a rule have them or use them means we are an unhygienic lot.

The reason for the 'step' in German toilets is for checking for worms I believe.

Anyway, you clearly cannot or will not see how your opening post was an offensive list aimed at the people of the UK and how your 'on the plus side' was rather mealy-mouthed. There is no point in me saying the same thing over and over again, I have explained several times how your posts came across to me and others on this thread so there is no point in me addressing any more of your points as you are not prepared to accept any view or opinion other than your own.

Melasa I disagree the OP has made her feeling about carpets and bidets very clear.

No nerve hit here and no I have never had a 'crusty' bottom nor has anyone ever inferred that I have and, shock horror, I managed that without having to resort to a bidet.

Naples has a bad reputation but it has really cleaned itself up in the last few years (not literally - it's still filthy!) We went on holiday there with the kids last year and had a great time. I actually felt safer there than in Rome where I have been ripped off several times and been pickpocketed! It has a bad reputation Italy too. My friend (who lives in the North) left all her jewellery at home when she went there. Nothing happened in Naples but she was burgled while she was away and everything got nicked!

I loved Naples and felt perfectly safe there, it reminded me of Paris in parts. But then I went there with Italians. Dd has been there on a school trip and not had a problem.

I had my pocket picked in Florence (and Manchester) and was physically (sexually) attacked (twice) in Brussels. Once in full view of commuters at a train station who did fuck all.

I my view the positives and negatives after being married to a southern Italian for 10 years are...

Negatives

The mother in laws

Corruption is so rife it's scary. Little mountain villages having mafia hits

Elected officials are mainly corrupt, from the bottom up.

The mother in laws.

Racism, truly unacceptable.

The almost total lack of variation of food. Italian food can be amazing, sometimes you fancy a chow mein or a curry and the availability is almost non-existent.

The mother in laws.

The driving standards. You take your life in your hands on every journey.

The treatment of animals.

The mother in laws.

The half finished houses. They stay like that for years.

The weather forecasts . I haven't watched TV there for ages but do they still have the military uniforms?

The creeping hands and accepted sexiest behaviour.

The mother in laws.

Positives

The weather.

The food.

The acceptance of children in restaurants.

I would say the way old people are cared for at home but that would include mother in laws so that one is out of the window.

Ummm. Nope. Struggling to think of anything else.