AIBU to hate these things about England vs Italy?

[ItalianPoster]

As an Italian who has spent the last decade in England, I have grown fond of the country, but there are also a few bugbears which totally drive me nuts. Clearly a light-hearted rant, not a profound economic, sociological and anthropological analysis!

1.  No bidet. I. Will. Never. Get. It. You don’t clean your hands, or a baby’s bottom, with a dry towel, right? You wash the parts! Ideally with water, or at the very least with a wet wipe. Why should an adult’s bottom be any different?
   

2. No ID cards. I will never get it. You are opposed to ID cards because you don't want a compulsory document but you have made the passport practically compulsory. Don't say you don't need a passport - Windrush proved you wrong. Note that a system of ID cards, like in most of the civilised - and developing - world, would have avoided the Windrush scandal.

3.  Leasehold. The middle ages are over. Ius primae noctis has been abolished. Why does leasehold persist?
   

4.  Carpets. I understand them in offices. I understand them in flats with no noise insulation. But in houses? Whether you like them or not is subjective. That they are filthy and almost impossible to clean effectively, compared to wooden or tile floors, is not – that’s a fact.
   

5.  Separate hot and cold faucets. Why, oh, please someone explain why!
   

6.  Rodents. No, they are neither normal nor harmless. They carry diseases. In many continental European countries, having rodents is shameful and dealt with swiftly – here they are just accepted passively. Councils don’t seem to conduct periodic exterminations like abroad, and most homeowners seem happy living in properties full of rodent-friendly holes, or just accept with a shrug that, when a house is being refurbished, mice will move to the neighbours!
   

7.  State schools. Admission by distance, ie by whether you can afford to live close enough. Faith schools funded by the State! It would be outrageous to have hospitals for Christians only but funded by all taxpayers, yet this is what happens with State schools.
   

8.  School uniforms. Why are you so obsessed with them? While they might have some merit, the obsession with which some schools apply their dress codes is shocking. Every September there are stories about repressed,  control-freak headteachers who check whether pupils are wearing the right shade of grey etc.
   

9.  Construction standards. Even without bringing up the Greenfell tragedy, construction standards are incredibly low compared to continental Europe. Is there maybe a tax for building stuff straight, not crooked, and for sealing holes? I had never seen crooked angles or ceilings in Italy, Germany or Spain – here they seem to be the norm. And doors? Why do your doors almost never seal the entrance properly? Having an energy performance certificate which looks at whether there any energy-saving light bulbs, but ignores that the front door is all bent and allows lots of draught in, makes no sense at all! Ancient Greece used to build straight stuff - why can't modern England, too?
   

On the plus side:

1. English mother-in-laws don't seem as overbearing as the Italian ones. Extended families are, in general, less "suffocating". Italian families tend to give more financial support, but that support tends to come with huuuuge strings attached. English kids are brought up to be independent, unlike their Italian cousins.

2. Work. There's much more of it, and the country is incredibly more open and meritocratic. In Italy, you'll struggle to find non-white non-Italians who have progressed in their career and are heading teams of white Italians. Not here. Foreigners for very high-profile jobs (Carney)? Forget it.

3. There is no concept of "concorso", these huge, theoretical exams which are needed to hire people in the civil service, and which, idiotically, totally disregard soft skills. A job "concorso" typically involves thousands of applicants locked in a huge gym answering mostly irrelevant and theoretical written questions.

4. The immigration bureaucracy is shameful (Windrush), but, in general, English bureaucracy is miles ahead the Italian one (I know, it doesn't take much!). Receiving a new driving licence, for free, in a few days, or receiving a tax refund 3 days after filing your tax return are unthinkable and cause the envy of our friends in Italy.

5. Green spaces and kids' activities. At least in London, there are so many, mostly well-kept gardens, parks, green spaces and play grounds; the difference with the large Italian cities is shocking.

6. Free motorways. Privatised railways have been an utter failure (Govia/Southern Fail), but at least you didn't privatise the motorways and gave too good a deal to a bunch of well-connected local entrepreneurs like we did (by the way, the fact they are the key investors in the Italian motorways is one reason why I never buy Benetton).

piscis- baby born in UK, name of parents on B/c, place of birth on b/c shows Britain. Depending how far back you'd need to go (no further generally than 1/1/83) you establish child would be British due to parents being British.

Obviously, it's more complicated than that, but that's the gist.

What's more British than having a bit of a whinge?

Open xenophobia, not racism.

Coming as much from the OP as other posters, tbf. And even more so from posters professing to be from other EU countries as far as I've read.

I’ve seen a few Italian schools where the kids are wearing UK-style sweatshirts. Way to go!

@Racecardriver, the photocard driving licence looks like this:
www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/photocard-driving-licence-explained
and does not indicate nationality.

Even if you had declared your nationality to your doctor (I haven't), that is not proof of much.

Our children's English birth certificates show parents' names, not the nationality of the parents, not that of the child.

Seriously, do we even live in the same country?

Irma, yes, uniforms remove the pressure of wearing the latest expensive clothes. But the Sutton Trust claims they have no impact on educational achievements. My gripe is not with reasonable uniform policies, but with petty ones enforced by repressed teachers : what message do we send kids if teachers measure whether the skirt is 1mm or 6mm shorter than the prescribed length? Or if kids get aligned in the gym so someone can check whether they're wearing the right shade of blackgreyblue whatever? Or if pupils are put in detention for wearing the summer uniform because the headteacher has not yet declared it's hot enough to do so? Rigid enforcement of stupid rules is counterproductive, that's my point.

You know it' actually really difficult for a lot of people moving to a country where you don't get the jokes. Don't get the pop culture references, the social norms, the ridiculous plumbing all while working and paying in to a system that you didn't actually take from as a child (but are apparently destroying by being alive and contributing) having 'British as a cup of tea on a hot day kids', and living in a country that voted to not let people like you in the country to live anymore.

So year, maybe the Op had a little whinge, but maybe could be find some empathy and stop being cunts.

"Depending how far back you'd need to go (no further generally than 1/1/83) you establish child would be British due to parents being British."
Precisely! This was roughly my point. Which means that, in my example, you'd need to get hold of the great-grandparent's documents. Good luck with that; especially if they were legally settled foreigners.

For future reference, anyone considering emulating the OP’s post should take note and put the stuff about how great the UK is first! I don’t think she’d have got half as bad a flaming if she’d written it the other way round.

I did actually read to the end of the OP and although I don’t agree with all of it I thought it was pretty balanced. Most of the gripes about England (taps, carpets, bidets, mice, uniforms, crooked doorframes) were obviously minor and some of the criticisms of Italy (infantilisation of young adults, openness of the U.K. job market including to foreigners and BME Brits, bureaucracy) were really serious.

A little whinge is fine but the OP listed 9 points against the UK which basically read as:

You can't build anything properly
You are dirty and unhygienic due to your carpets and lack of bidets
You should have ID Cards because I say so
You should get rid of Leasehold because I say so and if you don't agree you are somewhat backward
You are overrun by rats and because you are so dirty, unhygienic and such lousy builders you put up with them
Separate taps
You fund faith schools and I declare this discriminatory
You have school uniforms and the imposition of the rules around these are obsessional
Your treatment of immigrants is appalling

But on the plus side you have:

Good mothers in law and independent children
Lots of work
Better civil service entrance criteria
Nice green parks in London
Free motorways

and the OP is surprised that posters have taken umbrage with the skewed balance of those lists? Equally, the OP became very defensive and outraged when posters called some of those things into question and hit back with equally poor examples of Italy which they have experienced. Now why would the poster react like that, I wonder? Could it be because they don't appreciate their country of birth being similarly traduced?

This was in no way a 'lighthearted' thread or whinge it was a masterclass in sneering superiority.

Many people have mentioned Naples. It is, from memory, one of the Italian cities with the highest numbers of homicide by population, thanks to organised crime, but I find it odd to hear Americans single it out, or to see Brits worrying about it but not about more violent US cities they have visited.
In Naples, the homicide rate is ca. 10 every 100k inhabitants: www.napolitoday.it/cronaca/classifica-reati-napoli-capitale-omicidi.html
In American cities like Washington DC or Chicago it is, respectively, 24 and 17:
ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-8/table_8_offenses_known_to_law_enforcement_by_state_by_city_2015.xls/view

Yet I have never heard anyone say that the USA Capitol has more than twice as many murders per inhabitant; or never have I heard any scaremongering campaigns against visiting Washington DC because it’s dangerous, like I have for Naples.

How many British tourists are too scared to visit Washington DC? AFAIK not many. So what’s wrong with visiting Naples?

There are probably many reasons why a tourist who behaves sensibly, avoids certain areas etc, should not be too worried about Washington DC’s murder rates. But, guess what, the same applies to Naples.

Finally, do you know about Elena Ferrante and her Neapolitan novels? This she wrote for the guardian, about national pride identity etc, is, IMHO, very fitting: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/feb/24/elena-ferrante-on-italian-language-identity

There you go again, OP, you will brook no criticism whatsoever of Italy, you are immediately on the defensive and doing the infamous 'whataboutery'.

Funny how you dislike other posters supporting and defending the UK.

“This was in no way a 'lighthearted' thread or whinge it was a masterclass in sneering superiority.”
If you think that moaning about crooked walls bidets and carpets, while at the same time recognising the vast superiority and openness of the British job market, the mostly efficient English bureaucracy which is light years ahead of the Italian one, the corruption in Italy, the dysfunctional family dynamics in Italy, and, as clarified in further posts, how the concept of responsibility and accountability are engrained in English culture but almost alien to the Italian one (I could go one with more points but I shouldn’t have to), if you think that all of this was a masterclass is sneering superiority, well, either my English is much worse than I thought, or you are so sensitive that the slightest criticism of your country gets you so worked up to ignore all the rest I have said.

RedDogsBeg, There I go what? I am curious about the reasons why a city with 10 murders per 100k inhabitants is a dangerous shithole to avoid, and one with 2.4 the murder rate is not.

If you did read what I wrote, you will have seen I have spared no criticism against my native country. If you haven't appreciated that, then, again, either my English is very bad or you have a very selective memory.

"you will brook no criticism whatsoever of Italy,"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

You have evidently not read a single word I have said. Or maybe my English really is that bad...

So saying that Italy is corrupt, that its job selection processes are idiotic, that families are dysfunctional, that the bureaucracy is inefficient and vastly inferior to the English one, that there isn't a culture of meritocracy or accountability, all of this means I can brook no criticism of Italy? Really? Are you being serious?

On the ID cards thing, my objection is that basically most government IT and database projects seem to be a bit incompetent. Like the NHS digitisation project, or the Home Office losing people's applications, or Windrush, etc etc. There's nothing to indicate they wouldn't turn ID cards into a massive fiasco as well. If I lived in a more sensible country I'd probably be less opposed, but this lot?

With you on the floors thing though. Carpets are icky. Wood floors all the way.

OP, I think you're absolutely right about the difficulty of establishing British nationality, and recent changes in legislation have made things immeasurably harder for people who came to the UK as children several decades ago when documentation simply wasn't required. Now it's not only required but also quite expensive to obtain.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to make ID cards compulsory. I think it's a civil liberties issue. I'd rather see the government and the Daily Mail and others back off from their aggressive attitudes to immigrants. There's no reason on earth why employers and landlords etc should be responsible for policing immigrants.

You immediately leapt to the defence of Naples and then accusingly asked posters why they don't make the same points about US cities, sheer whataboutery, we were NOT talking about the USA we were comparing the UK and Italy.

Naples was described as a shithole but not just because of the armed guards outside Lidl.

If you really cannot see why your opening post list would cause offence, and did, I can't help you as I tried to point it out clearly to you in my post of 15.23.

You have repeatedly refused to say why that opening list wasn't more balanced - to start with it was 9-5 against the UK, I am discounting point 5 of your 'in favour' list because you even used that supposedly favourable point to slate the UK over immigration. Secondly, your 'in favour' list was pretty risible set against you 'not in favour' list.

You very reluctantly accepted the points made about corruption in Italy and then, as per usual, came up with a caveat, without proof, relating to the Channel Islands and the Cayman Islands.

You went nuclear when I mentioned the influence the Catholic Church wields in Italy, again that didn't fit your carefully crafted agenda.

I am nowhere near as sensitive or blinkered about the UK as you appear to be about Italy. I am well aware the UK has faults which it deserves criticism, and at times robust criticism, over.

OP, what did you expect by posting this here? What do you want to achieve?

Everyone knows that Italy is a shithole, mostly. Any country is better than that. That's my piece. Now what?

Cripes what a bunch of humourless moaners and I'm not talking about the OP!!
I think you were pretty fair OP.

The separate hot and cold taps indicates that the hot water tap isn't safe to drink from, it's a cross contamination thing. It's still annoying though.
You learn something new every day- and of course our tap water is drinkable everywhere in the country!

I think that you'll find the reason that nobody's mentioned Washington DC is that most people were under the impression that we were discussing Italy v UK. Also, why Washington DC?, not even in the Top 50 World cities by homicide rate....if you really want to make a point Central/South America is the place to look.

DP (Black Brit, Jamaican parentage) will be visiting Naples next month on a short tour of Southern Italy, we did live for 2 years in Philadelphia so it will be interesting to see which feels 'safer'. So far the most threatened we have felt was Milan - the overt racism there is reminiscent of England in the 60/early 70s.

I like the UK, it has its failings but on the whole we're a tolerant and inclusive lot. We've taken a lot of stick since Brexit but anyone who's travelled around Europe should know that we're not the worst by a very long chalk.

I don't tolerate rodents in my house, only had them in London, never here in Kent. I always ensure my arse is clean and my carpets are clean and fragrant (because I know how to look after them).

I'm happy that you like some things about the UK, OP and won't hold your less positive comments against you x

Worst lighthearted thread ever 😂

Apart from the history of pipes post that was fascinating! Whoever did that and the poster who mentioned they could do an equivalent on off-shore oil rigs please start a 'brief history of' thread.

Also fwiw I have 2 pet rats. They keep the mice away...

"You went nuclear when I mentioned the influence the Catholic Church wields in Italy, again that didn't fit your carefully crafted agenda."

I'm really starting to doubt my ability to express myself in the English language, really. I was super clear that I hate any intrusion of the Church into society, anywhere; I was super clear that the Catholic Church has has an obnoxious influence in Italy. Not only did I not minimise that - I expanded on the point by providing many more examples, from Church-owned bed and breakfasts that don't pay taxes, to priests who applaud women who get back with abusive husbands, etc.

I did not very reluctantly accept the point about Italian corruption - I said it straight away FFS!

My opening balance may have been 9-5, but, FFS, how can you give equal weight to moaning against crooked walls and carpets and bidets, vs applauding the less corrupt English society, the openness, the meritocracy of the job market, the families that encourage independence here but not in Italy, etc etc. really, how, FFS?

If parents are born in uk then they will have a British birth certificate, by 16 child will have received a national insurance number.

My son needed to register for new bank account, and prove identity at college for enrolment. For bank account his birth cert and a utility bill in my name was shown, also a child tax credit letter on which he is named.

For college enrolment his NI letter, birth certificate and bus pass was shown.

Don't understand all the fuss about ID cards